imported_Grouse
New member
charger17 said:
Similar is true with carpet and fabric protectants using a flourochemical bonding process.
8 Way Paint Sealant Test
- Thread starter David Fermani
- Start date
- Status
Similar is true with carpet and fabric protectants using a flourochemical bonding process.
6 or 7 years ago, a very similar comparison was shown on the Acura NSX forum. As I recall, the testor used an old red 1991 NSX hood which he cleand and striped into 9 squares. His chief interest was to see how the really expensive Zymol compared in looks and durability to the Zymol carried in most auto supply stores.
This test was an eye-opener. Initially, all 9 squares looked great, but after some time exposed to the weather, the most durable was not Zymol, but the old (pre-ZFX) Zaino Z-1 followed by Z-2. Since my Reatta was a very similar red, I tried Zaino and have become one of those Zaino-holics.
The website was: http://www.nsxsc.com/nsexcitement/waxtest.html
But it is apparently no longer a working link.
Please keep us posted with follow-ups. As well as your choice of carwash and whether or not you use qd's, and, if so, which ones.
Z-2 Pro and Z-CS are promoted as lasting at least 9 months; and if a "cow or a countess" can make it 9 months, I guess those of us on this forum can also. And we'd all like to know which is more durable.
This test was an eye-opener. Initially, all 9 squares looked great, but after some time exposed to the weather, the most durable was not Zymol, but the old (pre-ZFX) Zaino Z-1 followed by Z-2. Since my Reatta was a very similar red, I tried Zaino and have become one of those Zaino-holics.
The website was: http://www.nsxsc.com/nsexcitement/waxtest.html
But it is apparently no longer a working link.
Please keep us posted with follow-ups. As well as your choice of carwash and whether or not you use qd's, and, if so, which ones.
Z-2 Pro and Z-CS are promoted as lasting at least 9 months; and if a "cow or a countess" can make it 9 months, I guess those of us on this forum can also. And we'd all like to know which is more durable.
Since I also have a silver car (among others), I'm quite interested in your long-term results.
6 or 7 years ago, a very similar comparison was shown on the Acura NSX forum. As I recall, the tester used an old red 1991 NSX hood which he cleand and striped into 9 squares. His chief interest was to see how the really expensive Zymol compared in looks and durability to the Zymol carried in most auto supply stores.
This test was an eye-opener. Initially, all 9 squares looked great, but after some time exposed to the weather, the most durable was not Zymol, but the old (pre-ZFX) Zaino Z-1 followed by Z-2. Since my Reatta was a very similar red, I tried Zaino and have become one of those Zaino-holics.
The website was: http://www.nsxsc.com/nsexcitement/waxtest.html
But it is apparently no longer a working link.
Please keep us posted with follow-ups. As well as your choice of carwash and whether or not you use qd's, and, if so, which ones.
Z-2 Pro and Z-CS are promoted as lasting at least 9 months; and if a "cow or a countess" can make it 9 months, I guess those of us on this forum can also. And we'd all like to know which is more durable.
6 or 7 years ago, a very similar comparison was shown on the Acura NSX forum. As I recall, the tester used an old red 1991 NSX hood which he cleand and striped into 9 squares. His chief interest was to see how the really expensive Zymol compared in looks and durability to the Zymol carried in most auto supply stores.
This test was an eye-opener. Initially, all 9 squares looked great, but after some time exposed to the weather, the most durable was not Zymol, but the old (pre-ZFX) Zaino Z-1 followed by Z-2. Since my Reatta was a very similar red, I tried Zaino and have become one of those Zaino-holics.
The website was: http://www.nsxsc.com/nsexcitement/waxtest.html
But it is apparently no longer a working link.
Please keep us posted with follow-ups. As well as your choice of carwash and whether or not you use qd's, and, if so, which ones.
Z-2 Pro and Z-CS are promoted as lasting at least 9 months; and if a "cow or a countess" can make it 9 months, I guess those of us on this forum can also. And we'd all like to know which is more durable.
charles brom
New member
Scottwax said:Dave-just an FYI on Acrylic Jett...don't let it dry! Lightly work in until it you see no high spots, then remove.
Should be an interesting test.
Hi Scott:
Do you recommend the same process for Klasse Sealant Glaze?
Charlie
Zonyl is the next generation Teflon. We've been using R2000 in our shops for over 15 years with great success. Customers rave about the finish and how their vehicles look year after year. We apply to 30 vehicles per day, 300 day's a year but I'm no expert like the rest of you guy's.
imported_Conan777
New member
Great thread I love comparisons! My only question is why are you tormenting us. A true professional would have silently started this test 9 months ago and posted only when he had his results! ha..ha..! Just kidding!
Todd@RUPES
Just a regular guy
gldetail said:
No, your not an expert and you definetly didn't study science in school. I don't think you get it, TEFLON cannot bond to the paints surface unless it is super heated, understand? Not yet, let me repeat, TEFLON cannot bond to the paints surface unless it is super heated...
Get it yet, its science...
As far as you customers, I have seen many floored by the results from the hack shop, so your point is equally retarded...
Now, I want you to repeat, TEFLON cannot bond to the paints surface with out being super heated, get it yet?
TH0001 said:
Wow, someone needed to be breastfeed a little longer!
I never argued the science of Zonyl. I said that we applied R2000 to customers cars with great results. Let's see 30 cars a day x 300 day x 15 years. Wow, that's alot of satisfied customers from a hack shop.
Grow up! 45 detail shops have opened and closed in our area in 15 years yet were still here? hmmmm. Maybe you could be my marketing/science director so I could stay open 1 more year. please !!!!!!
elsdragon314
New member
There is a lot of Teflon myth out there. Actually Teflon refers to a group of compounds. The one most people are aware of is polytetrafluoroethylene, or PTFE which is a long carbon chain bonded solely to fluorine atoms. The other two common forms are FEP (fluorinated ethylene-propylene) and PFA (perfluoroalkoxy polymer resin) which have similar structure to PTFE, but some of the groups are substituted to make the material more workable for its intended aplication.
First, what is teflon? It was discovered accidentally as many of these things seem to have been by the chemisist Roy Plunkett working for Kinetic Chemicals (later bought out by DuPont) in 1938 (he was trying to develop a new CFC (chlorofluorocarbon) refrigerant. Essentailly he got a solidifed mess, not ideal as a refrigerant.
The structure of teflon as the PTFE name suggests is a long carbon chain, where every branch is bonded to fluorine. If you look at a periodic table, Fluorine is the most electronegative and reactive of all of the elements. Once it is bonded to the two free electrons of a carbon atom in a chain, the covalent bond will transfer to very little else. Teflon has a melting point of 327 C, although above 260 C, its integrity starts to degrade, also notable, it has the lowest known coefficient of friction for a solid which is the well known and desired non-stick property.
Now the interesting part. Teflon, once it is formed will not bond to anything, not even itself. The stuff that goes on your pans is in fact not PTFE, because there is no way to get it to bond to the metal. Rather, some of the fluoride atoms are replaced with reactive groups (this is where the big PFOA (perfluorooctanoic acid) scare comes in), and the sprayed on the material which we want to be non-stick. The item is then baked, and the reactive groups break and bond with the desired surface, technically this is no longer PTFE, because some of the bonds are not to fluorine atoms, but it is still known commonly by the teflon name.
So why will PTFE not work for paint protection? Exactly the same reason cited earlier, it bonds to almost nothing much less your paint, and it has to be baked on. There are teflon like components that can be used and will cross link to other polymers, but anything chemical claiming to have teflon in it is most likely marketing crap (particularly oils, remember there are much better lubricants than teflon, it just has a low coefficient of friction for a solid, many of the more common solid lubricants rely on the fact that they break and slide across themselves easily, or have a shape that mimics a ball bearing, teflon does neither of these things and does not make a fantastic lubricant.).
Wikipedia and the related links have more good information if you are interested.
Ok, I am done with the Teflon rant. I can't wait to see the results of this comparison. It is always nice to see well set up tests, and I will be following this one.
First, what is teflon? It was discovered accidentally as many of these things seem to have been by the chemisist Roy Plunkett working for Kinetic Chemicals (later bought out by DuPont) in 1938 (he was trying to develop a new CFC (chlorofluorocarbon) refrigerant. Essentailly he got a solidifed mess, not ideal as a refrigerant.
The structure of teflon as the PTFE name suggests is a long carbon chain, where every branch is bonded to fluorine. If you look at a periodic table, Fluorine is the most electronegative and reactive of all of the elements. Once it is bonded to the two free electrons of a carbon atom in a chain, the covalent bond will transfer to very little else. Teflon has a melting point of 327 C, although above 260 C, its integrity starts to degrade, also notable, it has the lowest known coefficient of friction for a solid which is the well known and desired non-stick property.
Now the interesting part. Teflon, once it is formed will not bond to anything, not even itself. The stuff that goes on your pans is in fact not PTFE, because there is no way to get it to bond to the metal. Rather, some of the fluoride atoms are replaced with reactive groups (this is where the big PFOA (perfluorooctanoic acid) scare comes in), and the sprayed on the material which we want to be non-stick. The item is then baked, and the reactive groups break and bond with the desired surface, technically this is no longer PTFE, because some of the bonds are not to fluorine atoms, but it is still known commonly by the teflon name.
So why will PTFE not work for paint protection? Exactly the same reason cited earlier, it bonds to almost nothing much less your paint, and it has to be baked on. There are teflon like components that can be used and will cross link to other polymers, but anything chemical claiming to have teflon in it is most likely marketing crap (particularly oils, remember there are much better lubricants than teflon, it just has a low coefficient of friction for a solid, many of the more common solid lubricants rely on the fact that they break and slide across themselves easily, or have a shape that mimics a ball bearing, teflon does neither of these things and does not make a fantastic lubricant.).
Wikipedia and the related links have more good information if you are interested.
Ok, I am done with the Teflon rant. I can't wait to see the results of this comparison. It is always nice to see well set up tests, and I will be following this one.
Brian_Brice
New member
gldetail said:
More like WOW that's a lot of wool to pull over a lot of eyes, that will take a pro years to bring back to the light, jmo of course:nana:
elsdragon314
New member
Oh, and from what DuPonts website has, Zonyl is under the Teflon name as a lot of other fluoropolymers are generically lumped together. I think the post saying it is the next generation Teflon is probably where this argument is coming from, (it is different, no one ever used Teflon as a surfactant, that is for sure, although the DuPont literature is inconsistent, and there are a lot of types of Zonyl, from alcohols to very fine ground PTFE).
From DuPont: (www2 . dupont.com/Zonyl_Foraperle/en_US/products/zonyl_pgs/surfactants . html) also
(www2 . dupont.com/Teflon_Industrial/en_US/products/product_by_type/additives/index . html)
"Zonyl® Fluorosurfactants & Coating Additives
Surfactants are a substance which aggregates or absorbs at the surfaces and interfaces with a system - and changes their properties. DuPont™ Zonyl® products are fluorocarbon-based surfactants (Fluorosurfactants). Fluorosurfactants additives enhance the properties of the formulations such as improved wetting/spreading, leveling, penetrating, foaming, chemical stability, thermal stability, and can substantially reduce surface tensions.
Fluorosurfactants are versatile and can be used with a wide variety of materials such as paint and coatings, adhesives, waxes and polishes, and cleaning products.
Coatings Zonyl® products improve properties such as wetting, leveling, defoaming, blocking resistance, open time, and reduction of surface tension."
Never personally heard of or used R2000 I am sure the people here would appreciate it in a comparo, it may be the next great detailing discover, like the grout sponge
.
From DuPont: (www2 . dupont.com/Zonyl_Foraperle/en_US/products/zonyl_pgs/surfactants . html) also
(www2 . dupont.com/Teflon_Industrial/en_US/products/product_by_type/additives/index . html)
"Zonyl® Fluorosurfactants & Coating Additives
Surfactants are a substance which aggregates or absorbs at the surfaces and interfaces with a system - and changes their properties. DuPont™ Zonyl® products are fluorocarbon-based surfactants (Fluorosurfactants). Fluorosurfactants additives enhance the properties of the formulations such as improved wetting/spreading, leveling, penetrating, foaming, chemical stability, thermal stability, and can substantially reduce surface tensions.
Fluorosurfactants are versatile and can be used with a wide variety of materials such as paint and coatings, adhesives, waxes and polishes, and cleaning products.
Coatings Zonyl® products improve properties such as wetting, leveling, defoaming, blocking resistance, open time, and reduction of surface tension."
Never personally heard of or used R2000 I am sure the people here would appreciate it in a comparo, it may be the next great detailing discover, like the grout sponge
.'R2000 was a product that GM developed with DuPont. When they stopped the program CPC took it over. We\'ve applied the product to over 100,000 vehicles in the salt laden \r\nState of Michigan with great results. We have a rebuy rate of over 98% which to me is say\'sit all. It works. 15 years and 100.000 cars is text results enough for me.'
elsdragon314 said:Oh, and from what DuPonts website has, Zonyl is under the Teflon name as a lot of other fluoropolymers are generically lumped together. I think the post saying it is the next generation Teflon is probably where this argument is coming from, (it is different, no one ever used Teflon as a surfactant, that is for sure, although the DuPont literature is inconsistent, and there are a lot of types of Zonyl, from alcohols to very fine ground PTFE).
From DuPont: (www2 . dupont.com/Zonyl_Foraperle/en_US/products/zonyl_pgs/surfactants . html) also
(www2 . dupont.com/Teflon_Industrial/en_US/products/product_by_type/additives/index . html)
"Zonyl® Fluorosurfactants & Coating Additives
Surfactants are a substance which aggregates or absorbs at the surfaces and interfaces with a system - and changes their properties. DuPont™ Zonyl® products are fluorocarbon-based surfactants (Fluorosurfactants). Fluorosurfactants additives enhance the properties of the formulations such as improved wetting/spreading, leveling, penetrating, foaming, chemical stability, thermal stability, and can substantially reduce surface tensions.
Fluorosurfactants are versatile and can be used with a wide variety of materials such as paint and coatings, adhesives, waxes and polishes, and cleaning products.
Coatings Zonyl® products improve properties such as wetting, leveling, defoaming, blocking resistance, open time, and reduction of surface tension."
Never personally heard of or used R2000 I am sure the people here would appreciate it in a comparo, it may be the next great detailing discover, like the grout sponge
Thanks for the research. I hope the test results bear out the success we've had.
imported_Grouse
New member
For what it is worth I have used flourocarbon protectants (teflon) in the carpet industry for years. They work, and work well. as stated above they make a sacrificail barrier, ie just like a typical wax. They increase surface tension, oil resistance, dye resistance, and water resistance. As far as carpet/fabric protectants go their great weekness is ultra violet light. It breaks down the protectant over time. That is okay, because the traffic on the carpet/fabric would have already soiled to the point of it needing to be recleaned.
It's a similar principal to daily driver cars. you can put a nine month sealant on it, but chances are it will need a clay and light polish at 6 months.
It's a similar principal to daily driver cars. you can put a nine month sealant on it, but chances are it will need a clay and light polish at 6 months.
Regardless of how many millions of cars anyone has detailed, has really nothing to do with the fact that DuPont publically stated that Teflon provides zero benefit and is of no use in car care products. Do you tell your customers this before you probably overcharge them for your miracle Teflon product that provides no greater benefit than a regular $5 bottle of Turtle wax?
imported_Grouse
New member
TigerMike said:
In that instance they were (to the best of my recollection) talking about PTFE, which is different, vastly from a flourocarbon strain of teflon. Which can to some degree bond with a substrate. Weather or not it is a improved system over current acryllic or polymer sealants remains to be seen.
'
Mr. French,
You seem to have gotten the hackels raised on a few people (judging by the number of times this post has been reported). I'd like to clear the air for the misinformed.
R-2000 is a member of a family of brands that sell a polarized Teflon paint protection system. To the best of my knowledge they are: 5 Star Shine, paint defence, counteract paint protection, CPC paint, and R-2000. All of these brands use the same method and materials (as far as I can tell). Each of these brand offers the near identical same warranty and claim the coating "can last" for up to 5 years without the need to renew the process. Before the bashing continues on Teflon, members should go educate themselves on the claims being made. Do you believe in the polarization process or don't you? Is there any 3rd party fact to back it up? What are customers saying?
db
FYI: According to your statement, you are a reseller of the R-2000 products. That makes your posts commercial in nature, which is not in line with our community rules. Please review.
gldetail said:
Mr. French,
You seem to have gotten the hackels raised on a few people (judging by the number of times this post has been reported). I'd like to clear the air for the misinformed.
R-2000 is a member of a family of brands that sell a polarized Teflon paint protection system. To the best of my knowledge they are: 5 Star Shine, paint defence, counteract paint protection, CPC paint, and R-2000. All of these brands use the same method and materials (as far as I can tell). Each of these brand offers the near identical same warranty and claim the coating "can last" for up to 5 years without the need to renew the process. Before the bashing continues on Teflon, members should go educate themselves on the claims being made. Do you believe in the polarization process or don't you? Is there any 3rd party fact to back it up? What are customers saying?
db
FYI: According to your statement, you are a reseller of the R-2000 products. That makes your posts commercial in nature, which is not in line with our community rules. Please review.
elsdragon314
New member
Grouse, thank you for reiterating the point. PTFE is just one of many fluoropolymers generically known by the teflon name. PTFE is very different from some of the other types, and in the Zonyl instance, it is specifically in DuPont's literature that it is intended as an additive for cleaners waxes, etc.
From DuPont's website: "Fluorosurfactants are versatile and can be used with a wide variety of materials such as paint and coatings, adhesives, waxes and polishes, and cleaning products"
We have to be very careful saying teflon, generically people think of the stuff covering their cookware, and it is true, that is of absolutely no use for car care, but there are many other things that fall under the teflon name, some of which DuPont designed for this type of use.
Regardless, this is waaaaay off topic, and I think we should go back to what the point is: a very nice and well thought out product comparison, I can't wait to see results at the 6 month mark!
From DuPont's website: "Fluorosurfactants are versatile and can be used with a wide variety of materials such as paint and coatings, adhesives, waxes and polishes, and cleaning products"
We have to be very careful saying teflon, generically people think of the stuff covering their cookware, and it is true, that is of absolutely no use for car care, but there are many other things that fall under the teflon name, some of which DuPont designed for this type of use.
Regardless, this is waaaaay off topic, and I think we should go back to what the point is: a very nice and well thought out product comparison, I can't wait to see results at the 6 month mark!
- Status