Relabeling Question-Safe to ask?

Stop using the car analohies.



Under the hood of an Acura it clearly states "Honda Motor Company"

Under the hood of a Lexus, it clearly states "Toyota Motor Company"



In Ford TV ads, the speaker used to clearly state, "See your local Ford and Mercury dealer"





You don't see any of these detail relabelers saying, "come see our new product at Chemical Guys"



Or



"Made by Warner Chemical" on the back of the label.



Its shtty....



Many mass clothing retailers do this, but they buy and relable the ENTIRE line for a season.
 
SuperBee364 said:
The problem is *deceit*. I refuse to do business with any of these "re-branders"; they won't give me an honest answer, so I won't give them an honest buck.
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I'm sorry, I think you guys are confusing my insomnia and desire to offer a "fair and balanced" discussion as some sort of defense or endorsement of rebottlers/rebranders/relabelers. I also find the deceit distasteful, the layers of BS spun by these guys.



I guess I just don't mind if other people see value in these suppliers, enjoy dealing with them, etc. Different strokes. Whenever we have one of these threads, other people point out how if there were no rebranding/relabeling there would be a lot less products out there to buy. What about the no-name gas station that gets its gas from the big-oil refinery, samd as the name brand place down the street that charges 15 cents more a gallon? And on and on.



And jdoria, I'm sorry you don't like my car analogy, I still think you can find plenty of Acura owners that don't know their car is a Honda because they have never opened the hood, or read the window glass...besides, those people don't WANT to know their prestige-based purchase is made by a company with a reputation for frugality. And as far as people who don't own Acuras, there are tons of them who don't know it's a fancy Honda. As far as that deceit, if Honda really wanted to be transparent, why wouldn't they sell all their cars (Honda AND Acura) at the same dealer? The fact that Acura (or Lexus, until recently) doesn't exist in Japan, and that they were created solely for the status-seeking American market, is really the proof. They may not hide it, but they don't actively seek to burst the bubble of exclusivity they have created, which is far different than the traditional "everyman" marketing of Honda (or Toyota). And you, as a dealer brat, are the last person who would be taken in by this, and the last person who could have an objective viewpoint on it.



Anyway, I guess initially I thought I would inject some counterpoint before this thread degenerated into the usual namecalling and alleged rebrander bashing, and inevitable moderator intervention, but you guys are doing fine on your own, so I'll leave it be.
 
The other thing is that the pricing is essentially backwards from most private labeling deals. In my 9-5, I work for a large commercial manufacturing firm. We produce a variety of private label products to spec - most of which sell for *less* than our name brand products.



Much like CG's we make more money off of selling our branded product, in return for more hassle. It does not surprise me that Paul occasionally "outs" his PL clients - in a 10-20 year timeframe, it would do him well to establish CG as a brand and wipe out his PL clients. Unlike a traditional PL scheme (which makes sense for both parties, as it allows a company to target various price levels while maintaing the premium reputation of their brand), his marketers add no value and significantly jack up the cost.
 
SuperBee364 said:
For me, what it amounts to is that most all of (at least *my*) detailing needs can be met with products from companies that don't have these kind of shady business practices. I never hesitate to buy from Optimum, Menzerna, Meguiars, Finish Kare, etc., etc., The point? Get yourself some GOOD honest product from a manufacturer that is honest, and cares. Optimum and Meguairs *listen* to their customers and regularly improve their products based on the fact that they *care*. And there's a lot of other companies like that, too.... Like klearcote... I probably spelled that wrong, but the guys that produce the moose products. Great stuff, they listen to their customers, it's not so expensive to break the bank, they give great customer service, and their products work well.



With all the options available in the detailing product market, there's just no reason to give dollars to the shady rebranders.
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SuperBee364, BigAl3, and all

What is your take on a company like Duragloss? Care to share?



Newbie here and have been buying stuff like nobody's business. Optimum, Duragloss, Meguiars. I am still looking to see which product I like (in terms of looks, feel, and application), serves its purpose, best bang for the buck, so to speak.



Now thinking of trying and getting Finish Karre, Menzerna, Chemical Guys, Zaino, Dodo. Up until I stumbled upon this thread. Everything stops. Until I can figure out what is what and let it sink in.
 
Originally Posted by craigdt

Well, if the product works, does it really matter if its relabeled?



Just playing devils advocate here
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I guess why it matters to some people is knowing that you can get the same item from a not so marketing savvy label at a cheaper price.
 
I think people are just looking for value for thier money.





I'd hate to give Adams $19.00 for something I could get for $10.00.







For me it isnt about pulling the curtains back, its about value for the dollar.



I dont need much product support. And if I did, I'd like to talk to the manufacturer, not the "re-mixer"...
 
Like anything you need to be educated to make an informed decision, if you believe the product you are interested in is a re-label, buy the cheaper original if you can tell the difference.



The detailing product industry is like all business, with the ethical and non-ethical involved trying to get your money, sites like this help because we all can compare notes and EXPERIENCES on who's who in the zoo.
 
Setec Astronomy said:
I'm sorry, I think you guys are confusing my insomnia and desire to offer a "fair and balanced" discussion as some sort of defense or endorsement of rebottlers/rebranders/relabelers. I also find the deceit distasteful, the layers of BS spun by these guys.



I guess I just don't mind if other people see value in these suppliers, enjoy dealing with them, etc. Different strokes. Whenever we have one of these threads, other people point out how if there were no rebranding/relabeling there would be a lot less products out there to buy. What about the no-name gas station that gets its gas from the big-oil refinery, samd as the name brand place down the street that charges 15 cents more a gallon? And on and on.



And jdoria, I'm sorry you don't like my car analogy, I still think you can find plenty of Acura owners that don't know their car is a Honda because they have never opened the hood, or read the window glass...besides, those people don't WANT to know their prestige-based purchase is made by a company with a reputation for frugality. And as far as people who don't own Acuras, there are tons of them who don't know it's a fancy Honda. As far as that deceit, if Honda really wanted to be transparent, why wouldn't they sell all their cars (Honda AND Acura) at the same dealer? The fact that Acura (or Lexus, until recently) doesn't exist in Japan, and that they were created solely for the status-seeking American market, is really the proof. They may not hide it, but they don't actively seek to burst the bubble of exclusivity they have created, which is far different than the traditional "everyman" marketing of Honda (or Toyota). And you, as a dealer brat, are the last person who would be taken in by this, and the last person who could have an objective viewpoint on it.



Anyway, I guess initially I thought I would inject some counterpoint before this thread degenerated into the usual namecalling and alleged rebrander bashing, and inevitable moderator intervention, but you guys are doing fine on your own, so I'll leave it be.
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I think if you boil it down, it comes to the availability of information. Acura owners may not know or want to know that it's made by Honda, but the information is readily available. Ignorance is a problem of the person. With this stuff, the information isn't readily available.



I'd be interested to know what products are the same as the other, even if it wasn't allowed here. I also think it's funny when you have two different websites that are obviously owned by the same company have completely different pricing structures.
 
Banacheq said:
Mikenap is worried about buying the same product from different companies because he likes to try different products. I think that could describe a majority of the Autopian population.



It seems to me that one could easily end up buying the same product from 5 different "manufacturers" only to end up with 5 bottles of the same thing. This is at least a conceivable scenario.



I don't see people buying multiple cars (same car, different divisions) to find out which one they like better. And in the off chance they do, they'd have to be pretty dense not to figure out that the major auto manufacturers have multiple divisions with essentially the same cars. No one in the auto industry is trying to hide it either (at least to my knowledge).



I guess the only thing we can do here is to try to keep it out in the open so we can all be aware. I know in the past this has caused some unpleasantness, but anyone that's relabeling, or even tweaking the formula to make it their own, should be prepared to respond once the word is out.
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+ 1 from my perpective. I mean, why do I read up on this site in the first place? Here's a community based around detailing experts and there's *still* speculation on who re-brands what, etc etc. I'm on the "I'd like to know, and think it's deceiving." side of things.

I don't know why but maybe on a subconscious level that's why I've never tried/bought any Chemical Guy's or Adam's products. I don't want to waste time and money AND look like a fool for essentially using the same relabeled product. (Unless of course, the re-labeled product really *performed* different, but first I'd have to trust the manufacturer.) So I'm with SuperBee: kudos to Menzerna, Clearkote, and Optimum.





Setec Astronomy said:
If you did a Jay Leno thing and asked the public .....
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Actually, Jay Leno's writer's stole, err "relabeled" this bit from Howard Stern's 'The Homeless Game'
 
I, like many on here would prefer to know if it's relabeled, but by the same token if I pay $2 more for a product I could have got $2 cheaper from the original manufacturer it's no big deal to me. I am more concerned with the product doing what it should do. If I end up with 2 items that are the same, again if they do the job it's not a total waste. I would guess most everyone who has spent any amount of time on this forum knows who the rebranders are and shops accordingly. For the most part I have not seen many large price differences from the original to rebranded products, although I am sure there are some instances of this. If I was a pro and was going thru gallons upon gallons of product I guess it's a big deal. Then again, I would think the pros have a responsibility to educate themselves to a degree on relabels(as I am sure most all here do). To me only harm done, is as stated above, to the little guys who dont use up a lot of product and are left with multiple products of the same thing under different brands.
 
During the last AG Detail Fest warehouse tour, there was a stand/rack that was filled with 1000's of Wolfgang, XMT, Pinnacle, DP & Diamonite labels meaning they're just a tweeked relabled brand.
 
David Fermani said:
During the last AG Detail Fest warehouse tour, there was a stand/rack that was filled with 1000's of Wolfgang, XMT, Pinnacle, DP & Diamonite labels meaning they're just a tweeked relabled brand.
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:nixweiss: Don't they have those labels there because they do their own bottling? I seem to remember seeing a picture of a bottling machine at one point, and at the bottom of this page Meet the AutoGeek Staff, Max and the Autogeek Staff they show a guy who's in charge of bottling and labeling.



Once again, if I design a product, but I subcontract out the manufacturing, did I not design the product? So if AG formulates a product, but has it toll blended and delivered in bulk, to be bottled on-site, does that not make them the formulator? Is there anyone in the detailing business who actually makes their own base chemicals? Doesn't Warner Chemical buy their base ingredients from companies like 3M, Dow, BASF, etc.? Does Meguiar's have chemical plant? Or do they just have a blending/bottling plant? Where they blend their formulations? I highly doubt you will see a refinery or an abrasives mine with a Meguiar's sign on it.
 
Setec Astronomy said:
:nixweiss: Don't they have those labels there because they do their own bottling? I seem to remember seeing a picture of a bottling machine at one point, and at the bottom of this page Meet the AutoGeek Staff, Max and the Autogeek Staff they show a guy who's in charge of bottling and labeling.



Once again, if I design a product, but I subcontract out the manufacturing, did I not design the product? So if AG formulates a product, but has it toll blended and delivered in bulk, to be bottled on-site, does that not make them the formulator? Is there anyone in the detailing business who actually makes their own base chemicals? Doesn't Warner Chemical buy their base ingredients from companies like 3M, Dow, BASF, etc.? Does Meguiar's have chemical plant? Or do they just have a blending/bottling plant? Where they blend their formulations? I highly doubt you will see a refinery or an abrasives mine with a Meguiar's sign on it.
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That's fine, IMO because we're getting pretty far from the concept of "relabeling".

I mean we could go as far as to say everything in the entire earth is just relabeled supernovae. :lol
 
I got some Wolfgang and Pinnacle samples in the past, if you put a dab of each in a lab dish - I'd bet my left #@!$ that they were the same thing.



My Dad had a friend that owned a mill, he said they sold the same grain mix under 6 different names to chicken farmers. Guess it's everywhere.
 
It is everywhere all about economics and if someone else can do it cheaper why do it yourself why not just buy it from them and you have then just opened up some time to work on other products and saved some money.
 
Cars may not the best example since the luxury brands provide more (quieter, luxury, higher performance engines, warranty, etc) in most cases yet many of the basic components (core engine parts, transmissions) may be the same.



Products are less about making them but selling them. A good salesman can get more for the exact same product because he knows his product and can sell.



The fact is not everyone knows everything so selling is a lot of about access so you cannot always price shop. From the way some think, if you are not buying from CG you are getting taken.



These sellers who are called rebottlers have access to people (the market) the core manufacturer does not either want to do nor can do. They would rather leave that to others.



What you are usually paying for and getting is better customer service like sponsoring these forums, educational videos, responding to questions, making fancy catalogs, nice looking web site, shipping quicker, lots of promotions, support for the business/hobby, etc. Since I am not in the business so cheap, cheap, cheap is not a requirement, I do not mind paying for some better customer service. Selling is often a personal experience (not like buying nails at Home Depot) and these guys are at places where people frequent to make the contact to make the sale.



Some sellers have acknowledged publicly they work with chemists (where who knows) to develop products from blenders. Some are more custom formulas than others. Dr G. at Optimum told me that his Metal Polish was a formula he developed for someone else initially.
 
I think its funny people wonder if xyz is relabled. I look at it this way. If xyz actually could develop their own stuff then they wouldnt be using generic boring subquality bottles.
 
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