I have a few Q's...... KLASSE

T

thecarguyGP97

New member
Alright, a couple of weeks ago i went out and bought some Mothers Carnuba paste wax and applied it to my car. I am a little hesisitant about it because i have never used it before and was hoping for good results. It has been 2 weeks and just yesterday it rained. I noticed that the water did bead fairly well but after it rained, the car looked dirty (which i can't stand!). I feel that it has lasted pretty well because when i washed it tonight, the water was still beading, but better in some spots than others. It seemed kind of weird because the water on the sides and lower portions of the car beaded better than like the hood and top. Well anyways, before buying the Mothers, i was getting very interested in Zaino. The only reason that i went with the $20 Mothers instead of the $50+ Zaino was because of the price. I just started reading somethin about Klasse, which i have heard is just as good as Zaino but won't cost me quite as much and i would like to know if it lasts as long as Zaino does? Also how's the shine? I feel that the Mother's left my car looking very good, but it almost seemed like it could look a little better and plus i would like a longer lasting product than an OTC carnuba. Also, will every wax/polish leave your car looking dirty after it rains? Thanks.
 
Thats a lot of questions! And the answers are all subjective to boot! Ha!



Well, first of all, yes, the polymer sealants of Klasse and Zaino and Blackfire will all far outlast every carnuba on the market. Klasse and Zaino will each last a long time. Which lasts longer between the two? I have done long term testing on both and my unscientific tests are inconclusive. It's that close. Sal Zaino insists that Zaino will. I believe him. They are both quality products. The shine of the two products are a bit different, especially if you start to do multiple layers. The optics of Zaino are clearer and will put less tint in the finish of the final color. It's a personal thing. One is not better than another. You may like one better than another that's all. Zaino tends to have a slicker feel than Klasse. Do a search in the archives. This topic has been run to death so many are hesitant to go over it again. Moral of the story: Both are good, you can't go wrong. Do your research.



As far as looking dirty after a rain? No, other than the obvious dirty fallout in the rainwater itself, wax should NOT make your car look dirty.
 
Zaino really isn't all that expensive if you want the bare essentials, Z1 and Z2 or Z5. You can get started for under $30 or slightly over depending on which two you order. The rest of the cost comes from buying things that you will need anyway like car wash, QD, clay bar, etc... I like the Zaino system of products. It's great to know that Z7 wash and Z6 QD are specifically formulated to enhance the Z look. Klasse is not a total system of products that work with each other to improve the look. When you use Brand X car wash with Klasse, it doesn't do anything to improve your shine and durability. If you break the cost per application down with Zaino, it's actually pretty cheap, as experienced Z users can get between 20 to 30 applications per bottle. That's enough to last longer than a year even if you add two coats per month! Don't misunderstand though, Klasse is a good product by itself, but I prefer a total car care system that works in harmony, instead of bits and pieces.



Also, my car stays cleaner after a rain downpour than with any other product I've ever tried. It's almost like the rain actually washes the car after it's dried! You'd have to see it to believe. Here's a photo I took after my car had been driven through a big downpour and dried off naturally. Hardly a speck of dirt!
 
I've got this problem on the bedcover i've got on my truck.



The reason it looks dirty after a rain is because your car get a light coating of dust. When it rains the rain picks the dust up and puddles it up, then when it evaporates it leaves dense little areas of dirt that look really bad.



Except on my truck the water runs off my bedcover and leaves dirty streaks down the side. GRRRR
 
Well that's the main reason that Zaino doesn't appeal to me more. There are so many products that it becomes expensive. I started totaling this up a little while ago and got up to $80! He're's my list. Obviously z2 and z5 and i would like the zfx so that i can put on more than one coat in a day. The website says that you need to use z6 inbetween coats of the polish, so add that to the list. I also need to clay my car very bad and have been planning on doing that this summer. And to top it off, like you said, i need some car wash. This makes my list contain about 6 products! Since i didn't decide to go with the Zaino, like i said before, i bought some Mothers Carnuba paste wax. I feel that the klasse will benefit me because it will give me LONG lasting protection and i can top it with the Carnuba to give it the deep Carnuba shine. Also, how long does the Klasse last? I know the website says that 6 months, but does it really last that long?
 
You just need at least 2. Z1 (or ZFX) and Z5. That's it, you're set. Total spent is under $30. What's so complicated about that?



It's just more fun to use the other products in the Zaino line, and I feel they add to the end results. But Zaino is by no means a big complicated system!
 
Well, actually the bare essentials would be Z2 <strong class='bbc'>Or[/b] Z5 and Z6 and you would be able to beat the best of most any carnuba on the block. <strong class='bbc'>That's it. [/b]If you want the bare bones.

Z1 offers a chemical base that will help start the process off on the right foot. Is it "absolutely" essential to the system? No.

You need a QD to do proper detailing no matter what you use. Z6 makes sense and it really is great stuff. And the shampoo and clay you need to get from somone else anyway so why not Zaino. Just a thought. Zaino really isn't that expensive so don't let preceived cost stop you from using a great group of products.

The only <strong class='bbc'>"real"[/b]cost penalty I see is that ZFX is needed to do multiple coats in less than 6 hours.
 
I've often wondered about the real necessity of Z-1 myself. I'm sure it helps in the bonding process for the the first coats on a car that gets a fresh layer only twice a year, but when you're adding a coat every few months or so, I wouldn't call it critical.

Ounce per ounce, zaino is a little more expensive than Klasse:

Klasse SG: $1.18/oz
Zaino Z-2: $1.62/oz
Zaino Z-5: $2.12/oz

Klasse AIO shouldn't be in this comparison because its main benefit is its cleaning/polishing properties and should thus be compared with other cleaner/polishes.

The price differences listed above really shouldn't be much of a consideration when deciding between Klasse or Zaino. However, as Brad said, it does become a factor when ZFX is added to the mix (sorry for the pun!). But that is to be expected because ZFX puts the Zaino polish on a whole new level that is above and beyond what Klasse SG can do.

All those instructions on the Zaino website such as adding a coat of Z-6 QD between coats will improve your results with Zaino, but that also holds true for Klasse as well. Spraying on a coat of Sonus QD between Klasse layers will yield improved results. It did for me at least. The instructions on the Zaino site may seem extensive, but they are presented in a way that will give everyone a chance to get the best possible results.

<blockquote class='ipsBlockquote' >

<em class='bbc'>Originally posted by thecarguyGP97 [/i]
<strong class='bbc'>Also, how long does the Klasse last? I know the website says that 6 months, but does it really last that long? [/b]</blockquote>
According to several forum members who only apply Klasse twice a year on their cars, 6 months (& sometimes longer) isn't an unreasonable expectation at all.
 
You can apply Z1 and Z2 or Z5 (don't forget clay) to a method similar to 2+3 method of AIO and SG, but what would be the point of getting Zaino?



It may last for 6 months but most Z users rarely only detail twice a year.



Most Zaino users never give Z the bare minimum treatment they like to apply it often.



Klasse you can get away with mins and pull it off, and many poeple do, and that's what makes it easier, IMO.



It kinda depends on what kind of detailer you are. I like to go nuts twice a year (keeps me motivated) Some people like to go strong all year long.



As far as Newbury winters are concearned, I don't really want to full blown detail during the winter.





Some people with brand new cars don't like to use AIO so that means SG is your only cost factor (I use AIO). 16.9 oz at .5 oz per coat at 2x5 coats a year (and that's heavy, 2x3 is more realistic) and that's 33.8 coats or 3.4 years on 5x2coats/year and 5.6 years on 3x2coats/ year. If you buy a 33 oz bottle then you get more value as well.



they're both expensive, I'm beginning to think that Z vs K is slightly not only about what kind of shine you're after and how easy you want it, but what your detailing habits would be on maintainence.
 
<blockquote class='ipsBlockquote' >

<em class='bbc'>Originally posted by YoSteve [/i]
<strong class='bbc'>what would be the point of getting Zaino?

It may last for 6 months but most Z users rarely only detail twice a year.

Most Zaino users never give Z the bare minimum treatment they like to apply it often.[/b]</blockquote>
Thus, there isn't any point in getting Zaino? :confused:

Don't mean to sound like a typical zealot, but I'm really confused. Either product will work fine when done twice a year...
 
What is the formula for a twice a year zaino typical job, maybe I can buy that amount from one of my Z friends and try it out for comparison.



I guess I don't see a point in using Zaino only twice a year.

Can you explain otherwise?



Scottwax, do you have any? (since i'm lettin you in on Souveran ;))
 
<blockquote class='ipsBlockquote' >

<em class='bbc'>Originally posted by YoSteve [/i]
<strong class='bbc'>I guess I don't see a point in using Zaino only twice a year.
Can you explain otherwise?[/b]</blockquote>??What?? (I don't quite get your point.)

Well, me either. But the same goes for anything! Including Klasse! But you could if you wanted to. It surely would last long enough. I have used both Klasse and Zaino for a long time and both are very durable.
 
<blockquote class='ipsBlockquote' >

<em class='bbc'>Originally posted by YoSteve [/i]
<strong class='bbc'>What is the formula for a twice a year zaino typical job, maybe I can buy that amount from one of my Z friends and try it out for comparison.[/b]</blockquote>
Steve,

I think I see what you mean. Admittedly, Zaino users generally do not strip their cars twice a year and do two major detailing jobs per year. Instead they layer a new Z coat indefinitely. But that's borne more out of philosophical differences as opposed to inherent differences in the product. I'm sure either product can be used either way with great results.

As an example, this is what I did with my little sister's car...a '95 Corolla.

Oct '01 (approx):
Dawn Wash
Clay
Scrubed down entire car with FI-II
Polished with PPCL
Z-7 Wash
Z-5 (single coat)

Car looked brand spanking new. Car was still very glossy and beading very well last month right before I detailed it again, despite being outside 24/7.

Last Month:
Z-7 Wash
Scrubbed with PPCL
Z-2

Car looked terrific again and I expect it to look good in 6 months. I guess ideally, you'd want to use something stronger like an SMR as well as clay, but I didn't have time.
 
I don't think a single coat of Z5 is to make for a good comparison.



can you write up something to compare with my



1+2+5 job of PPCL, AIO, SG that I do twice a year



I will get that stuff and use it to it's fullest potentional on my car and compare it to Klasse (as I have been using Klasse for over a year now and know exactly what it does on my car)





David, my point is that many defend a method that they don't use. I only defend a method I use cause I actually use it. I know it's durable, I know it'll last 6 months. Intermezzo talked about a system he has success with; I respect that. It's something I can comprehend.



I know it does all these things, but if people don't use it in the method described, how is one use that as a reason to buy the stuff. For example I thwart 2 coats on two separate ocassions of AIO for a 4 month coating because, that's what I use on my families older cars. I also approve of using 3 coats back to back, because thats what I did on my car.



Z will last 6 months without maintainence but I would like to know the correct recipe that mimics the minimal amount of frequency of waxing that I currently practice with Klasse. And I would like to get that formula from someone who uses it for that purpose. ultimately for comparison
 
Steve, are you going to test Zaino?



I would think that a good bi-annual schedule for Zaino that could be compared with your Klasse schedule might be the following:



-Spot Clay (if needed)

-PCL or SMR (depending on how many swirls there are)

-Wash oils with dawn (or just Z-7)

-3 coats Z-5/ZFX

-3 coats Z-2/ZFX (on the next day)
 
Finally........FINALLY......... someone coherently elucidated the primary point behind the entire "Zaino vs. The World" ongoing debate. Steve nailed it 110% perfectly - Zaino users promote and defend (vigourously) a methodology they do not use themselves. It's no wonder why non-Zaino users get so frustrated and start flame wars.



Most Zaino users are like Metallic Mike - they employ most of the Zaino system, if not the entire system. They like the fact that Zaino is designed that way and all the products work in harmony. That concept is hardly original but it is effective.



So it stands to reason that to obtain the maximum effectiveness of the Zaino products, one must use as many of the Zaino products as possible. The more Zaino products used together, the more effective the results will be. I don't think anyone will disagree with that.



If you buy Z2, Z5, Z6, and Z7, your cost is $47.80. If you add ZFX (which is sensible if not 100% necessary) the cost jumps to $67.75. Add in the price of shipping and/or sales tax and you're over $70 and pushing $80. Now add Z1 (Sal says it "must be used before applying Z2, Z3, or Z5") and add another $8.95. We're pushing $90. While I realize that many of us do not care how much money we spend on car care products, you have to respect and account for those people who do. BTW, my pricing comes from a price list given to me by a Zaino distributor.



So all this leaves three core, foundational questions that perhaps no one can truly answer but must be asked:



(1) If the above Zaino system is purchased at those prices, can the same amount of money be spent on other products to obtain comparable or even superior results?



(2) If one of the "basic" Zaino product mixes are used, is the effectiveness and quality of the entire Zaino system compromised? In other words, is the Zaino "effect" reduced or unmaximized if the complete product line is not used?



(3) And if the Zaino effect is not maximized due to not using the complete system, can the results be duplicated by other products at the same or lower cost?



I don't expect anyone to answer these questions. Just consider them before you dish out advice and commentary. Personally, I think the old "do as I say, not as I do" advice does more of a disservice to the recipient than I think people realize. I understand people are only trying to help. But honesty and full disclousre are much more helpful in the long run instead of telling people what you think they want to/need to hear.



Thanks for reading my diatribe.



:)
 
"(1) If the above Zaino system is purchased at those prices, can the same amount of money be spent on other products to obtain comparable or even superior results?"



Maybe, but I have yet to find any product that has the optical characteristics that Zaino provides. The closest I have ever seen was pure IHG not topped with anything. To me, Zaino's optical characteristics are what makes it stand out compared to other products.



"(2) If one of the "basic" Zaino product mixes are used, is the effectiveness and quality of the entire Zaino system compromised? In other words, is the Zaino "effect" reduced or unmaximized if the complete product line is not used?"



I wiil take it you meant to say if one of the "basic" Zaino product mixes is NOT used.



Since I only use Z5 and Z6 is only used when applying fresh coats of Z5(before, during and after, I do not use it for QDing) it is my opinion that the Zaino's optical characteristics are not reduced. I also wash often at the DIY wash places without using Z7 and have not seen any reduction in shine.



"(3) And if the Zaino effect is not maximized due to not using the complete system, can the results be duplicated by other products at the same or lower cost?"



If someone finds something that is truly better please let me know. I am always looking for something better.





"Z will last 6 months without maintainence but I would like to know the correct recipe that mimics the minimal amount of frequency of waxing that I currently practice with Klasse. And I would like to get that formula from someone who uses it for that purpose ultimately for comparison"



My dad who lives in Florida only uses the Zaino once every 6 months. He is very happy with the results. He has only used the Z2 with Z1. He does not spend any time on detailing forums.



Most people that spend time here are detailing fanatics who find it enjoyable to wax their vehicles often. Zaino is so easy to apply and remove an additional coat. That is why Zaino fanatics do it often; not because it is necessary.

I find it hard to believe that Klasse users who are fanatical about the way their car looks can wait 6 months in between applying an additional coat.
 
<blockquote class='ipsBlockquote' >

<em class='bbc'>Originally posted by YoSteve [/i]
<strong class='bbc'>
Z will last 6 months without maintainence but I would like to know the correct recipe that mimics the minimal amount of frequency of waxing that I currently practice with Klasse. And I would like to get that formula from someone who uses it for that purpose. ultimately for comparison [/b]</blockquote>
That's an easy one for me. (I document everything in a log. Hey, I'm anal!) A year ago August, I started the BMW on a regime of Zaino. I applied Z1, 2 coats of Z5 and 2 coats of Z2. I used Z6 between applications. My periodic maintainence was bi-weekly washes. At the time I was using P21S shampoo maybe every 4 or 5 washes. I would QD with Z6 as required. (I was even without indoor storage for two fall months) I went through the winter and did not re-coat until mid February.

The results were impressive! I had previously been a Klasse user so I am familiar with those results as comparison as well.

So anyway, that regime was easily one that worked well for 6 months. That was my goal. To make it through the winter.
 
I realize that you are all now going to respond now that someone else has said something in my favor.



I had said initally that I wanted to test it with something comparible to what I would do. Reason being, why would I consider switcing to a product if I didn't like what I had to do with it?



For example, for someone who likes having super easy application and likes to apply often, I would agree that they use Zaino. The would like it and it would look great.



But I personally like, lack of frequency of use. I wanted and asked and explained that and all I got initally was questions about my questions.

Remember my old formula that I've always said for questions (where's floni and darbh?) answer the question at hand and then expand all you want. post pictures of cartwheels for that matter, answer the question and then rip on the person, don't just rip on the person.



Now I think Steve and Brad and Intermezzo and others for finally answering my questions about which zaino coating combo to use. it just shouldn't be like pulling teeth



so for I got -



-Spot Clay (if needed)

-PCL or SMR (depending on how many swirls there are)

-Wash oils with dawn (or just Z-7)

-3 coats Z-5/ZFX

-3 coats Z-2/ZFX (on the next day)



now Z users is this acceptible? or does it need refinement? <-------



(follow the arrows for the question(s) that needs answering)





Ric, it took me a total of 7 days to detail my car using Klasse for 1xPPCL 2xAIO and 5xSG and I had to SG the lower plastic with different applictors, it took me another week to take off my wheels Klasse those 1xAIO 3xSG. I have to Black Magic all the plastic and dashes, etc and all the other detail stuff. So how often am I supposed to do that? I takes me 2 hours to wash my car and I various other details (especially the wheels). By that time, I don't feel like putting a layer of SG because 1) I don't think "regular" wash preps the paint good enough to merit another coat of SG and 2) it looks so good it seems like it doesn't need it.



I hope the above does work so that Klassers that like only detailing twice year can have an outlet by way of Zaino if they feel that they don't like Klasse for the various problems some users get despite their attempts (ie, haze, hard removal, darkening). And while I have not had ANY of these problems, but I'm not doing this just for me.
 
I Dawn washed, Mother's clayed and Klasse AIO and 3 layers of SG. started in June and finished in July ( 2001). I would wait a week between layers of SG. Since then I have washed with GC shampoo and QD with CP. The car is a 1994 Lincoln Continential. It is not a garage queen, but I do park under a car port.



The car still looks good. I have purchased a PC 7336 sp and some other products, but I am waiting for the need to use them. In the mean time I bought a Snapper rear riding lawn mower. Well, I think you get the point.



I do have one suggestion, if you decide to go with Klasse. Get the concours kit, The MF applicator pads work very well with Klasse.
 
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