I have a few Q's...... KLASSE

<blockquote class='ipsBlockquote' >

<em class='bbc'>Originally posted by YoSteve [/i]
<strong class='bbc'>Intermezzo, Zaino users can't have it both ways. If I were to say Klasse is more durable than Zaino for 6 months it would cause a stir. But if everyone adds to their Z because of how fun it is to apply then then shouldn't be able to say anything.

But then if I propose to test it under the same conditions (if not easier, cause it's not winter) then I causes another stir.

That's just not right; it's a double standard.

I too don't mean to be the PIA, but it needs to be done. And then we can play the money game and calcuate how much it really costs since the both systems will be evenly compared.[/b]</blockquote>
Steve, I'm all for your test. I'm going to assume you wrote this because of the misunderstanding with my "moot point" comment.
 
here's were the threads start being erased (but I hope they will be kept on to prove my point)



Over the past, I'd say 9 months there's been a bunch of people on the six month protection plan. How do I know this? Because many of them have sample kits, and that's all they have. They literally do not have the ability to put more than what came in the kit.



I also think that many Klassers tend to put toppers on their cars but way back when with that discussiont (despite what I said) eveyone agreed that the topper did nothing to enhance the durability of the finish, and those that topped their cars obviously don't layer on the SG.



So many people are doing it more than they think and some do inadvertantly test it because they simply don't have a lot of Klasse. Those guys should post, but the questions to those groups of people haven't been particularly addressed. I still think that most K users don't layer as much as Z users do. Look at the thread at who has the most layers of SG on their car, (I think the answer was 20). Now compare that to what we know what the number for the most number of Z layers on the car and it's not even comparable. So is that moot then?



If something obvious goes wrong in my testing, then I'll know for sure that something is not being done correctly. I will try all I can to correct the problem. When I hear that a Klassed car stops beading after a month, obviously there's a out of the ordinary reason for this, as many a car has always sheet/beaded for the life of the Klasse.
 
<blockquote class='ipsBlockquote' >

<em class='bbc'>Originally posted by YoSteve [/i]
<strong class='bbc'>Over the past, I'd say 9 months there's been a bunch of people on the six month protection plan. How do I know this? Because many of them have sample kits, and that's all they have. They literally do not have the ability to put more than what came in the kit.
[/b]</blockquote>
I never said there weren't any Klasse users that subscribed to the 'twice a year' plan. I'm sure there are plenty. However, the notion you bring up, which still doesn't make much sense to me, is that there is no point to using Zaino because Zaino users tend to layer very often. Your quote,

<strong class='bbc'> "You can apply Z1 and Z2 or Z5 (don't forget clay) to a method similar to 2+3 method of AIO and SG, but what would be the point of getting Zaino?

It may last for 6 months but most Z users rarely only detail twice a year.

Most Zaino users never give Z the bare minimum treatment they like to apply it often.

Klasse you can get away with mins and pull it off, and many poeple do, and that's what makes it easier, IMO." [/b]

Well I contend that there are several Klasse users that layer SG more frequently than twice a year. Perhaps not as religiously as Zaino users, but there are plenty that do. Does using Klasse become pointless for these people as well? They obviously do not give their cars the "bare minimum treatment". Your statement above still confounds me.

<blockquote class='ipsBlockquote' >

<em class='bbc'>Originally posted by YoSteve [/i]
<strong class='bbc'>I still think that most K users don't layer as much as Z users do. Look at the thread at who has the most layers of SG on their car, (I think the answer was 20). Now compare that to what we know what the number for the most number of Z layers on the car and it's not even comparable. So is that moot then?[/b]</blockquote>
Once again Steve, please do not misunderstand my posts. I didn't say Klasse users layer just as fanatically as Zaino users. All I'm saying is that there definitely are people that layer SG on their cars whenever the itch strikes.

So you ask me what is moot? What's moot is your statement that using Zaino is pointless because most of them layer beyond the bare minimum level. Why is it moot? Because there are definitely Klasse users who do the same thing, albeit not quite to the same extreme.

<blockquote class='ipsBlockquote' >

<em class='bbc'>Originally posted by YoSteve [/i]
<strong class='bbc'>If something obvious goes wrong in my testing, then I'll know for sure that something is not being done correctly. I will try all I can to correct the problem. When I hear that a Klassed car stops beading after a month, obviously there's a out of the ordinary reason for this, as many a car has always sheet/beaded for the life of the Klasse.[/b]</blockquote>
Steve, that's a commendable plan. Like I said before, I have confidence that you'll do a fine job with the Zaino testing.

<blockquote class='ipsBlockquote' >

<em class='bbc'>Originally posted by YoSteve [/i]
<strong class='bbc'>here's were the threads start being erased (but I hope they will be kept on to prove my point) [/b]</blockquote>
Steve, if you feel that I've flamed you, then I apologize. It certainly wasn't my intention (just wanted to give you a hard time!). Let's not turn this into some kind of flame session. Just two folks having a nerdy debate! :)
 
Steve, You still have not answered my question.



Once you have stripped your car of Klasse, will you be doing a Zaino regimen on the Whole car?



Or will you be doing half the car with Zaino regimen and half the car with a Klasse regimen and comparing it as time goes along?

This is the only way you can possibly do a fair comparison. You need to have both products exposed to the same weather conditions and same environmental contaminants at the same time for your test to have any validity.



You often quote that the way you do your Klasse method is 2 AIO, 5 SG every 6 months and imply that you have been doing it this way for years. Yet I can find posts of you stating that you put on a Blitz topper as recent as September 2001. "Blackmirror, to answer your question, if you decide to try out Klasse the AIO and the SG is what you need. I (along with others) use Blitz as a carnuba topper which add nice depth to your Klasse)." posted 9/24/01
 
<blockquote class='ipsBlockquote' >

<em class='bbc'>Originally posted by YoSteve [/i]
<strong class='bbc'>I unfortunately will be stripping my whole car of its still intact Klasse protection.[/b]</blockquote>

Ric, this doesn't answer the question? I will be stripping my WHOLE Passat and replace it's once Klasse protection with a single application (be it 5 coats of some sort of Zaino system)

There will be no Klasse on my car. I am confused if that still doesn't asnwer the question, I've said it three times already (maybe I'm missing something)

I considered doing a half and half comparison but I know how Klasse has acted over 18 months and I know exactly what is does as I wash it almost every week. It will be easy for me to distinguish which one I think is better. Like if the beading is different I will know to what extent very easily. Now it might not be the best way but I feel that I have enough experience to make that judgement.

IMO, I think that Z has an advantage do to it being spring and summer season rather than fall and winter that my last application of Klasse was. If you want to do it the "waxtest way" then you go right ahead. I'm just going to apply it on a solid weekend and then pretend that it's Klasse and compare pictures and esentially my "gut feeling". Sure that's not very scientific, but lets say we can measure how to test it, if it feels all wrong then the mesurements won't mean anything.

I'm going to start another thread for Intermezzo's questions.
 
Intermezzo, when I find out the correct way to apply Zaino twice a year, I will be boasting it. I will probably put it up on my webpage for reference.



my point is and still is, if a newbie uses Zaino twice a year then not many z users will support you because not many people do it and don't have a lot of experience to it.



so if someone comes onto the board and asks the K or Z question and says they only want to apply something twice a year (not a stretch of a question) then you can usually say K. But not many people will say Z. They'll say Z, and then promote the extra stuff (which may or may not be necessary despite the ease)



So if a newbies comes in asking for a twice a year wax, what would be the point in telling them to use zaino, and then saying, well while you're at it, you should try to layer all you can because it looks soo awesome as you do it. I get that it looks better and is easier, but that's not what they were asking for.



I hope that makes sense.





I don't know if this for a lot of people what what a lot of Klassers do to satisfy the "itch" is they add with a topper (so that they can wax all year long, but they still only reKLasse twice a year. And the other people satisfy the "itch" by doing other peoples cars.



I truly believe that my car wouldn't look noticably better if I put 5 more layers of SG on it. (that might be rip on Klasse), but I would rather spread the wealth and put 5 more layers on a completely different car and have 2 super shiny cars, rather than 1 a tad more super shiny car. I just think it makes more sense. I have soo much other stuff between, my painted wheels, a ton of interior plastic and leather and carpet, engine, wheel wells and lower valences that knowing that my car is protected for well over 6 months allows me to work on other stuff. It just doesn't seem as efficient to me.



I'm not offended in anyway. I've been in worse conversations. The reason why they would erase that post is because it makes reference to something I sell, that's all.
 
"Originally posted by YoSteve

I unfortunately will be stripping my whole car of its still intact Klasse protection."



No...that did not answer my question but you have now answered it.

"replace it's once Klasse protection with a single application (be it 5 coats of some sort of Zaino system)"



Again, I will say your results will be useless. A 6 month case study is much less valid than a 6 month direct comparison between the two products.



Spring/Summer is much harsher on car finishes than the Fall/Winter months.



There is more pollen,bird droppings, higher temperatures, stronger sun, and acid rain etches much more easily in summer months. Acids do their most damage at higher temperatures.



By doing half with Klasse and half with Zaino at least you will be able to draw fair conclusions. The way you are doing things now... if you get some sort of etching on your finish you will conclude that Klasse does a better job against protecting because that situation never happened when you used Klasse.



By doing half the car with Klasse and half with Zaino it will prevent you from drawing "possibly incorrect" conclusions. If after washing - one side has etching and the other side does not then you could say one side protected better than the other side and prove it with pictures.



Of course this is a hypothetical situation but you can't be so naive to believe that during the past 18 months using Klasse(with a carnuba topper for a significant number of those months) your car has been exposed to every environmental situation and that when you do your testing with Zaino that it will mimic exactly the same conditions.
 
Excellent post, RIC. I love it when people bring detailing tests to a more [IMO] scientific and logical level. :up



But how many would be willing to have half of the car look different for 6 months - year? I suppose that's the tradeoff for better testing.
 
it's not a 6 month case study



it's a 6 month try out to see if I like it better than my 1.5 years experience of Klasse (all seasons).



If I listened to other people about what people claimed as "useless" I wouldn't have experimented on anything new.



Put it this way, when ever you get someone to try out Zaino, do you insist that they split their car in half in order to make their decision to stay or switch correct? No, it's all gut feeling, its completely objective.



On the scale of 1-10, I get about a 0 on pollen, 0 on acid rain, heat and sun, hmm, spring like 3 summer like 7. You didn't know that Newbury was the best place to have a car? I always post about it. I get no dust, the clean rain washes my car. We don't get scattered showers (when it rains it pours)



In the winter we get salt (both sodium and calcium chloride) and cinders. Do they lay down cinders on the road where you live in the winter? that stuff sucks, I got pelted by a cinder truck before.



If I don't like the way Zaino "feels" (that includes looks and everything) compared to the 1.5 year of experience with Klasse, then I'll switch back. No harm done.



I'm mostly doing it for me, anyways. No sense in limiting myself, I'll just post it in the review section, as "useless" as it will be.
 
<blockquote class='ipsBlockquote' >

<em class='bbc'>Originally posted by YoSteve [/i]
<strong class='bbc'>still waiting on the review putey :) [/b]</blockquote>:D

Haven't used it enough! Gotta dawn wash off the Blitz and layer more zaino on this week! Must...apply...more...coats...
 
<blockquote class='ipsBlockquote' >

<em class='bbc'>Originally posted by YoSteve [/i]
<strong class='bbc'>so if someone comes onto the board and asks the K or Z question and says they only want to apply something twice a year (not a stretch of a question) then you can usually say K. But not many people will say Z. They'll say Z, and then promote the extra stuff (which may or may not be necessary despite the ease)
[/b]</blockquote>
I usually answer a newbie question like that with "use Klasse or Zaino".

<blockquote class='ipsBlockquote' >

<em class='bbc'>Originally posted by YoSteve [/i]
<strong class='bbc'>my point is and still is, if a newbie uses Zaino twice a year then not many z users will support you because not many people do it and don't have a lot of experience to it.
[/b]</blockquote>
I think you're wrong about that. I think Zaino people will show plenty of "support" to someone who wishes to use Zaino twice a year. I still think that your statement that it is pointless to use Zaino because most people apply it weekly or monthly makes no sense. Anyway, this is really getting pretty frivolous.
 
maybe you can post what exactly about that statement specifically is pointless

here's some background, after the last 2 times (maybe 3) I asked why people feel the need to keep on adding Z to their cars the answers I always got was, becuase it was fun, addicting, easy, they can't stop them selves, etc. I get it, but if you're not going to answer correctly then what's the point with that? I've been sorta patient, but I figured I'd just see how I like it.

now after all that, i basically just gave up. I now suggest a wax based upon detailing habits rather than what we all usually suggest because Z and K are both good. In a thread asking which they should get, saying either is good, but that still doesn't help them decide.

<blockquote class='ipsBlockquote' >

I think Zaino people will show plenty of "support" to someone who wishes to use Zaino twice a year.</blockquote>
it'll be cool to see if this pans out.

I agree we may never understand each other. If anyone can come up with 1) a magic sentence to get intermezzo to understand my point or 2) a magic sentence to get me to understand intermezzo's point, that would be better.


I think i'm just going to e-mail Sal
 
Use what you want.

-Use it how you want to use it.



If you ask for others' opinions, don't expect everyone to agree, no matter what the group is. All Klasse users wont agree on whether or not to use damp applicators / buffing cloths, Zaino users wont agree on cotton vs microfiber. Hoping for an entire group of users to agree with a brand new Zaino user's "test" of the product is rather wishful thinking IMO.



Maybe Intermezzo will explain what he views as pointless but this thread is getting a little "iffy" to me. Hopefully this post will explain my reasoning for this stance.



If you are going to ask questions and request opinions, don't complain when you get them, whether you agree or not. People are just trying to offer their input, which is exactly what I am doing. I'm sorry if I have done this in an improper manner but you will get different things from different people. That's what's great about being in such a diverse environment as Autopia.



:)

Justin
 
<blockquote class='ipsBlockquote' >

<em class='bbc'>Originally posted by puterbum [/i]
<strong class='bbc'>Maybe Intermezzo will explain what he views as pointless but this thread is getting a little "iffy" to me. Hopefully this post will explain my reasoning for this stance.
[/b]</blockquote>
Justin, it's not me that's saying it's pointless, it's Steve. He says that using Zaino is pointless because people like to apply it more than twice a year. Does that statement make sense to you? It sure doesn't to me.

I guess all those times I zaino'd and Klasse'd my cars has just been an exercise in futility.
 
Why wouldn't Zaino be useful if you only apply it twice a year? Just because some of the louder Zaino users may keep adding coats as time goes on doesn't mean you have to and by no means does it render the system useless in any form if it is not used in this manner.
 
Here's what I"m getting from this thread:



ZAINO – It’s wrong to apply more than 2 coats / year. Anything more than 2 coats are "pointless".



Honestly, the reason why some people (like myself) are applying more than 2 coats is just for “fun, addicting, easy, I can't stop myself�, and when you ask me why I layer more than 2 coats, I shouldn’t tell you my reason because you feel it’s not the “correct� answer. Hmm.. I don’t know. It seems like, if you don't like my answer then it's "not correct". Why do you ask question in a public forum if you can't hear opinions from all sides? :confused:



KLASSE - I just got Klasse and plan to do some big time layering like Zaio, but I can't do this because only Zaino should be layered, and anything more than 2 coats / year on Klasse is not Yo-Steve approved? :confused:



I'M REALLY CONFUSED!
 
ok here is what i think. Zaino and klasse will both last 6 months with like 5 coats on the car. Many people on this forum love to layer and layer the zaino so therfore there hasn't been any real durability tests for zaino because people are always applying new coats. I guess yosteve's point is why do people bother to keep applying zaino when it has such excellent durability. Are there any benefits to keep applying zaino? I mean its not cheap, 18 bucks for 8 ounces? Not trying to start a war just a friendly question, trying to clarify steve's point.
 
I understand what Tony is saying.

I understand what Puter is saying.

I understand what RIC is saying.

I *think* I understand what Steve is saying.

I'm not sure even William understands what William is saying. ;)





Steve, I think you should take RIC's advice and test Z and K side-by-side with as many things as possible being equal. I know you feel you can judge the performance of differing products without actually evaluating them in real time, but I think the rest of us feel that's not pragmatically possible. Please reconsider your test methodology.
 
**Unpackaging free Pinnacle sample addressed to AlBoston & putting it back in my garage** Haha, j/k.



If that's what Steve meant, then I can see his point. It may be pointless (to a certain extent) to layer coat after coat, but it doesn't make the entire process pointless as I thought he was first saying.



AlBoston, yes, I still think there are some benefits to layering Zaino or Klasse...
 
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