Want to clean my leather.

[Bunky]

Judyb, why do you think the many many protected leathers users of these "sit on the surface" leather care products believe they work?



I believe that if you put a "protection" product (may contain lanolin, wax, etc) will make the surface feel smoother (maybe not more pliable) in the same way a wax will make paint (as applied to a car) feel smoother.

 

[Quality Leather]

Besides auto, there are plenty of leather furnishing in homes and offices.



And they would also want their expensive boots, gloves, garments and handbags clean too.



To grow our money in our bank cleaning leathers has to go beyond cleaning.



It also includes Repairs, Rejuvenating and Refinishing.





A Baxter® Aniline Sofa and two arm chairs total refinishing was billed for $4990.



A Channel® ladies bag total refinishing billed for $750



A Zegna® reversible leather jacket total refinishing billed for $790

(better than new condition after a restaurant food spills damage).





With these high-end billing you thinks we're going to break our bank even “leather cleaner that costs a dollar per ounce�?





Leather services is the most lucrative business in the cleaning and restoration industry.





Roger Koh

Leather Doctor®

I am going to cry foul on this. I would hazard a guess and say most of these prices are outliers and not your typical average.



As a point of reference, I did a purse for Koko and Palenki a couple of weeks ago. It was a small spot on the bag. My minimum charge is $125 and the owners cried, so I relented and did it for $95. I have done some other work for the owners in the past, so that is why I did it. Also, they decided to just refer customers directly to me. Every customer with a purse or jacket that has called me for at least the last six or seven years usually hangs up when I tell them my minimum. I do have some friends in San Francisco that started an add on business doing purses, but a) they know what their doing and b) the market isn't that large.



As for furniture, the most money I have made on one job is $2500. It is the blue couch, chairs and ottomans on my website, if anyone is interested. The only reason I got that much was because he originally paid $25k for the set and his animals had destroyed. I had to be talked into doing it. Anyway, most jobs are nowhere near that price range. Most people balk at anything over $500 for a couch refinishing.



As an industry, I find that leather repair has remained static. What I mean by that is that wages have remained basically the same for the past ten to fifteen years. When I first got into the field in the mid 90s, the average person made between $50k and $100k. Those figures are roughly the same these days, but probably closer to the lower mark now. Most of the people in this industry focus on the auto side, which means dealers. Some of you know what a pain dealing with dealers can be and with the decline in the industry there are more guys fighting for fewer jobs. On the furniture and retail side, you have a another can of worms and it is less profitable than the auto side unless you are doing other things. For me, I am probably going to add distributing leather chemicals locally, a shop and later on an upholsterer. With a shop, I can branch out into other areas like headlight refinishing with an inexpensive DIY mix that I couldn't do mobile. For the detailers, adding on spot refinishing of leather in your customers cars might be an inexpensive add-on. This wouldn't require much training maybe a day or two. Your investment might be $1k or so, which should be easily recouped.



Hope this helps shine a light on the mobile interior/leather industry.

 

[Roger Koh]

I am going to cry foul on this. I would hazard a guess and say most of these prices are outliers and not your typical average.

===



I would also cry “Foul� to these wild claims, if I still operate as a “LEATHER BUTCHER�!



Those that follow and practice the Leather-Safe System as seen in the other Leather Cleaning and Restoration forum have since price their job up.



That’s the only way we can reduce our workload and concentrate only those “money is not at object� clients.



Customers are "Educated" about price and value, and here is an example:



This job was self pick-up on April 2, 2010. Total $4990



Re: Baxter® Waxed Aniline Leather Sofa and Two Armchairs.



2A-Sofa - Aniline Leather Tan with Lighter Trim.

A] Restoration Cleaning with Leather Structure Rejuvenating

2.1 Prep cleaning with Prep-4.4 > Cleaner-3.8 > Rinse-3.0 = $495

2.2 Hydrating with Hydrator-3.3 = $225

2.3 Fatliquoring with Fatliquor-5.0 > Rinse-3.0 = $495 ($1215)



2B-Sofa - Aniline Leather Tan with Lighter Trim.

B] Repairs & Refinishing

2.4 Dry Prep = $145

2.5 Leather surface repair with Impregnator-26 = $495

2.6 Top Coating with Topcoat Aniline-53WM = $495

2.7 Buttery Feel Non-Stick Protection with Leather Scent-B = $145 ($1280)



3A-Armchair (2 pieces) - Aniline Leather Tan with Lighter Trim.

C] Restoration Cleaning with Leather Structure Rejuvenating

3.1 Prep cleaning with Prep-4.4 > Cleaner-3.8 > Rinse-3.0 = $495

3.2 Hydrating with Hydrator-3.3 = $225

3.3 Fatliquoring with Fatliquor-5.0 > Rinse-3.0 = $495 ($1215)



3B-Armchair (2 pieces) - Aniline Leather Tan with Lighter Trim.

D] Repairs & Refinishing

3.4 Dry Prep = $145

3.5 Leather surface repair with Impregnator-26 = $495

3.6 Top Coating with Topcoat Aniline-53WM = $495

3.7 Buttery Feel Non-Stick Protection with Leather Scent-B = $145 ($1280)

 

[Quality Leather]

===



I would also cry “Foul� to these wild claims, if I still operate as a “LEATHER BUTCHER�!

Thanks for calling me a butcher!

Those that follow and practice the Leather-Safe System as seen in the other Leather Cleaning and Restoration forum have since price their job up.



That’s the only way we can reduce our workload and concentrate only those “money is not at object� clients.



Customers are "Educated" about price and value, and here is an example:



This job was self pick-up on April 2, 2010. Total $4990



Re: Baxter® Waxed Aniline Leather Sofa and Two Armchairs.

)

I am all for raising prices and doing only "money is not an object" clients, but the fact is there aren't that many out there that spend like that. I have done work in expensive homes, cars and yachts. Almost all of them are still price sensitive. Matter of fact, some of the worst clients are the richest ones.



As for your example, I still consider those outliers. Would I be happy to find 15 to 20 outliers like that a year? Yes, and that would probably be the bulk of my work. Unfortunately, I have only come across a handful of people that were willing to spend anything over $1k.



Oh and I wanted add to my statement on the average wages by leather guys. I have spoken to a lot of guys and suppliers over the years, so I am pretty confident in my numbers.

 

[Roger Koh]

As for furniture, the most money I have made on one job is $2500. It is the blue couch, chairs and ottomans on my website, if anyone is interested. The only reason I got that much was because he originally paid $25k for the set and his animals had destroyed. I had to be talked into doing it. Anyway, most jobs are nowhere near that price range. Most people balk at anything over $500 for a couch refinishing.

===





This blue Couch, Chairs and Ottomans you did looks a world of difference – the before and after!



Let’s see why your limit is only $2500 and why most people balk at anything over $500.



Would you answer these first questions?



What was the original leather type?



What coloring types you used for this Refinishing?



We would also go into the sequence of process to pick up values you have restored – to be worth what the customer is paying for.



If you are willing to go through this exercise I can assure that you start to rethink where goes wrong in customer’s perception – that’s price versus value.





Are you on?





Roger Koh

Leather Doctor®

 

[imported_DetailDan]

Hope you find this information useful



This is a response to several articles on leather cleaning recently posted on various forums. We have checked all our facts and discussed various points with a tannery, leather technologists and our product research specialists. The views expressed below have been formed over 20 years of leather cleaning and restoration experience and with constant reference to the people mentioned above.



On some posts recently there has been reference to pH levels. I would imagine that most of you find this very confusing and unnecessary. In all our years of successful cleaning and restoring leather I have never once referred to or been influenced by pH values. My advice would be to use specific leather products that have been tried and tested by your supplier who should also be willing to support you through any problems. The constant reference to pH may lead some to think that pH is more important than product formulation and can therefore use any cleaner of the correct pH. Leather is NOT a fabric and cleans in a different way for which specific products have been formulated. These will have the correct pH values for the job they are designed for, you and I do not need to worry about them even if we do know them.

Strong acids and strong alkalines and dry solvents all have the potential to damage leather finishes so are not used for cleaning, they are used for restoration or technical processes, your cleaners if correctly supplied will not be of that nature.

Anyone supplying a bewildering array of products with varying pH levels is only using it a a marketing ploy and to try to further confuse an already mind blowing array of cleaners and 'conditioning' products. Cleaners produced by companies specific to the leather industry will all have tested and retested their products and they will all be the correct level of pH to use safely as a cleaner. If these cleaners do not do the job then there is something else that is causing the problem which may then need other (more technical products) to rectify.



Spotting and problem solving in the cleaning process should be done using the same specified cleaning products but with reference to CHAT (TACT) Chemical, Heat, Agitation, Time (see separate article – to follow).



As a general rule and particularly with pigment coated leathers you will only be cleaning the surface or finish so your cleaning process will never come into contact with the actual leather (think wiping down a painted wooden surface) so why is the pH of the leather so important. Things that cannot be resolved in this way are more likely not cleaning problems. Ink, colour loss, fading, finish cracking, permanent staining, surface abrasion, most paints, nail varnish, dye transfer, excessive soil due to body oils, inappropriate use of products etc. are damage, not dirt and excessive cleaning without fully understanding the problems, the causes and the solutions is more likely to cause further damage.



Learn what is cleaning and what is restoration and do not let the first develop into the second unless you are prepared to deal with it. It can be expensive if you can’t.



Then we return to the ‘feeding’ ‘conditioning’, ‘nourishing’ topic.

It is incredibly difficult to remove the ‘natural’ oils from leather especially using detergent cleaners so replacing them is totally unnecessary and possibly detrimental on both finished and unfinished leathers. Modern C/T (Chrome Tanned) upholstery leather is a very sophisticated product and has been for decades. The notion that it is something straight from nature that has to be fed and nourished is totally incorrect (unless you are dealing with conservation and restoration in the museum and antique sense). The oils and fats in C/T leather are introduced after the C/T processes have reduced the skin to pure collagen fibre (there maybe a tiny amount of fat left but it is of no significance). The fat liquoring process carefully introduces fats/oils of a specific type back into the leather to coat the fibres. These are balanced to produce the desired end product and are very stable and very difficult to remove. Trying to add more fat/oil etc is totally unnecessary and is of no benefit. On an absorbent leather products used for ‘conditioning’ and ‘feeding’ will soak into the leather upsetting the balance and over time change it to the detriment of the leather. If the leather is non absorbent then these products have no where to go so will sit on the surface, getting slightly sticky and attracting more dirt. If they do manage to ‘get in through the cracks’ the results will be the same as absorbent leathers with the added problem of adversely affecting the bond between surface coatings and the leather.

Copyright LTT Ltd 2007 (amended 2010)







We have found during testing that 303 does not work on leather as a protector against dirt and oils. LM protector was always of a very high standard and they still produce a good quality protector but there are better on the market. The protector produced by the factory for LTT always keep theirs at a standard at least 50% stronger than any other on the market (this is tested rigorously).



Hope this helps

Sent you a couple PM's with no response...

 

[judyb]

Sorry D&D you have mail!!

We have been innundated recently and getting round to all the enquiries has taken time. Apologies for this.

Judyb

 

[newmoon804]

U can clean it by alcohol.

 

[Roger Koh]

As for furniture, the most money I have made on one job is $2500. It is the blue couch, chairs and ottomans on my website, if anyone is interested. The only reason I got that much was because he originally paid $25k for the set and his animals had destroyed. I had to be talked into doing it. Anyway, most jobs are nowhere near that price range. Most people balk at anything over $500 for a couch refinishing.

We are very, very interested to see the pictures (before and after) posted here of this original 25K set and how the input of $2500 has measure-up to its ‘ORIGINAL’.





And I will also post pictures (before and after) how an input of $4990 has measure-up to its “ORIGINAL�.





Then we will appreciate viewers’ comments, as to whether the input of $2500 or $4900 has more value!







Roger Koh

Leather Doctor®

 

[Quality Leather]

===





This blue Couch, Chairs and Ottomans you did looks a world of difference – the before and after!



Let’s see why your limit is only $2500 and why most people balk at anything over $500.



Would you answer these first questions?



What was the original leather type?



What coloring types you used for this Refinishing?



We would also go into the sequence of process to pick up values you have restored – to be worth what the customer is paying for.



If you are willing to go through this exercise I can assure that you start to rethink where goes wrong in customer’s perception – that’s price versus value.





Are you on?





Roger Koh

Leather Doctor®

It was a suede. I didn't realize it till after I had started to clean it.



My sequence to restore this will shock most people. I put the cushions in a front load washing machine and thoroughly washed them. I finished with a DI water rinse. After this they were pretty much prepped. I used Refinish Coatings top coat thinned down to soak in. I don't remember how many coats I put on it. I finished with a light sanding to bring the sued back up.

We are very, very interested to see the pictures (before and after) posted here of this original 25K set and how the input of $2500 has measure-up to its ‘ORIGINAL’.





And I will also post pictures (before and after) how an input of $4990 has measure-up to its “ORIGINAL�.





Then we will appreciate viewers’ comments, as to whether the input of $2500 or $4900 has more value!







Roger Koh

Leather Doctor®

I don't have any original pics of the leather. This set was twenty years old. The closest I had was the sections under the cushions. I use a computer for color matching, so the color was pretty spot on. Of course, that blue wasn't that big of a deal to match. IIRC, I don't remember there being a big difference between the original and my finished product. That is about as much info as I can give on that job. I did it three and a half years ago.



I am not going to get into a debate on which job has more value. That is a decision the customer has to make. The reason I say your $4900 is an outlier is most people would rather just replace with new than redo an old sofa. I know there is leather furniture out there that is $5k, $10k and up. I just don't see a lot of it.

 

[Roger Koh]

It was a suede. I didn't realize it till after I had started to clean it.



My sequence to restore this will shock most people. I put the cushions in a front load washing machine and thoroughly washed them. I finished with a DI water rinse. After this they were pretty much prepped. I used Refinish Coatings top coat thinned down to soak in. I don't remember how many coats I put on it. I finished with a light sanding to bring the sued back up.

These “Velvet Suede� also known as Nubuck show the result of the leather-safe system removing years of embedded body-oils and bringing back the 20 years of sun-fading without resorting to colors or dyes.



This work was done by a fellow leather service provider operates from Detroit – USA.



Hydrating with a pH 3.3 hydrator and fatliquoring with a pH 5.0 fatliquor was the main contributing process that brought the color back naturally.



I think it's a much simpler and safer system than what you have posted.



Do you see the technological advantages of using Hydrator and Fatliquor restoring back the color?







Roger Koh

Leather Doctor®





#1 Sunfading

#2 Before

#3 After

 

[Roger Koh]

I am not going to get into a debate on which job has more value. That is a decision the customer has to make. The reason I say your $4900 is an outlier is most people would rather just replace with new than redo an old sofa. I know there is leather furniture out there that is $5k, $10k and up. I just don't see a lot of it.

I make it a point that it is either customer buys “new� of the same “QUALITY� for replacement or we “refinished� back to its “ORIGINAL QUALITY�.



Then the decision of buying a showroom similar quality or refinishing back to original showroom condition becomes easier.



These pictures show the value return of an input of $4990.



You be the judge, besides removing or eliminating the creases the leather is rejuvenated back to its original strength and suppleness.



Pictures cannot tell how the leather response to the “hand� nor the types of tactile-feel be it waxy or buttery.



Neither do you able to pick up the unforgettable classical leather scent that charms.



Until you experience it live with available samples!



Let’s have some comments of this technological breakthrough system the ability to refinishing back to its “Original Leather Type�!



And this is a “Waxed Aniline Leather Type� much matte in look than the “Aniline Wax Pull-Up� that usually has a high gloss.



Roger Koh

Leather Doctor®





#1 Baxter Waxed Aniline Armchair before

#2 Baxter Waxed Aniline Armchair after

#3 Baxter Waxed Aniline Sofa before

#4 Baxter Waxed Aniline Sofa after

 

[B@tm@n]

Amazing job Roger. I read this threads and dont know nothing about what you are talking about. Steaming is not my thing. I just want a product that can get me a good result.

 

[Roger Koh]

Amazing job Roger. I read this threads and dont know nothing about what you are talking about. Steaming is not my thing. I just want a product that can get me a good result.

It is good when you post a picture and help will be more specific!



Roger Koh

Leather Doctor®

 

[judyb]

Amazing job Roger. I read this threads and dont know nothing about what you are talking about. Steaming is not my thing. I just want a product that can get me a good result.

Leather care should be simple and straight forward - complicating it with so many different products just adds to the confusion and misinformation that has been given and is totally unnecessary on modern 21st century leather.



Clean

Protect

Maintain



These 3 steps will help keep your leather in good condition and prolong its life.



If you:

Use water based products

Use fluorocarbon protectors not 'conditioners'

Avoid oils and waxes

Clean often particularly on pale coloured leathers



you will keep your leather looking and feeling good.



Hope this helps

 

[judyb]

Bunky

Judyb, why do you think the many many protected leathers users of these "sit on the surface" leather care products believe they work?



I believe that if you put a "protection" product (may contain lanolin, wax, etc) will make the surface feel smoother (maybe not more pliable) in the same way a wax will make paint (as applied to a car) feel smoother.

There are many products on the market that are simply'feel good' factors for leather. They will add a nice 'hand' to the leather when you have finished cleaning for a while. However, as they sit on the surface they do nothing for the leather itself. If they contain waxes and/or oils they are liable to attract more dirt to the surface which is what we are trying to avoid as it is dirt that will eventually do damage, first to the finish and then the pigment and eventually the leather. The key is to keep the leather clean and the easiest way to do this is to avoid oils, waxes, etc. as these will only add to the problem and use a protector which helps dirt sit on the surface and not become ground into the finish/pigment on the leather.

Products may appear to work but are simply a surface treatment which in the long run is pointless and unecessary.



Hope this helps

 

[rdorman]

What kind of leather is in my 2000 BMW 740i with comfort/sport seats? The color is sandbeige. Analine? Semi-Analine? Waxed Analine????

 

[Roger Koh]

What kind of leather is in my 2000 BMW 740i with comfort/sport seats? The color is sandbeige. Analine? Semi-Analine? Waxed Analine????

Does the seat has perforated panels?



And any pictures to show?





Roger Koh

Leather Doctor®

 

[rdorman]

Thanks for looking Roger. BEAUTIFUL work on that Baxter furnature BTW.



Here is the car in question: http://www.autopia.org/forum/pro-de...-ts-s-overnight-resto-rdorman-s-bmw-740i.html

 

[steelwind101]

Bunky



Judyb, why do you think the many many protected leathers users of these "sit on the surface" leather care products believe they work?



I believe that if you put a "protection" product (may contain lanolin, wax, etc) will make the surface feel smoother (maybe not more pliable) in the same way a wax will make paint (as applied to a car) feel smoother.





There are many products on the market that are simply'feel good' factors for leather. They will add a nice 'hand' to the leather when you have finished cleaning for a while. However, as they sit on the surface they do nothing for the leather itself. If they contain waxes and/or oils they are liable to attract more dirt to the surface which is what we are trying to avoid as it is dirt that will eventually do damage, first to the finish and then the pigment and eventually the leather. The key is to keep the leather clean and the easiest way to do this is to avoid oils, waxes, etc. as these will only add to the problem and use a protector which helps dirt sit on the surface and not become ground into the finish/pigment on the leather.

Products may appear to work but are simply a surface treatment which in the long run is pointless and unecessary.



Hope this helps

Bunky, As i posted a few times on here, some of the "sit on the surface" products contain content which can soften the plastic coatings, which is why people say how nice it feels, or it feels right/great yada yada.