Surbuf pad question...

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Hi folks, got a burning question I need an answer to...



I currently use Klasse AIO and KSG to protect my vehicles, both under one year old. I paint prep with clay/and PPCL, and then AIO(one coat) and KSG(up to four or five coats.)



CMA states that Blackfire has a low solvent content. Various posts here have stated that AIO and KSG have high solvent contents. SO what is the effect of the solvents over a long period of time(5 or more years), has anyone noticed that their paint is actually losing gloss/depth from using Klasse?









Does anyone on the forum have LONG term(ie. 5 or ten years o more) of experience with using Klasse on their cars? Do any of you long term Klasse users notice a dulling or drying of the paint over this time? I am most interested if anyone has removed their Klasse(during the twice or once a year strip down and start over periods) and noticed that the paint is dry or dramatically duller than before the previous layer of Klasse was applied.



Don't get me wrong, I love the big K. I am just thinking that with a high solvent content that maybe the long term effects of the Klasse are contrary to what we are all trying to obtain here, shiny, protected paint. I have not considered switching to Blackfire because of all the mixed reviews it received here on the forum. I am not opposed to solvents, just opposed to the thought of my paint slowly becoming dry/dull, and that my application of Klasse is hastening the process.



PS this is not a question to launch into the theory of oils/feeding paint. I think we all have reached the conclusion that oils do not really feed paint.



SJ













SJ
 
I wouldn't be to concerned. All waxes and polishes use solvents as carriers. I think the only water based product is Zymol cleaner wax.
 
then it has no carnuba in it! It would be almost impossible to use a water based carnuba system.



I agree though, the solvents are not going to hurt your paint finish. Most of them are highly volitile and evaporate and flash off quickly.



Lower solvent systems are more evironmentally friendly. Most importantly, they layer the best, because when a high solvent system is used it always cuts into the previous layer to some degree, hence it's cleaning effect. The converse of this is that most high solvent systems contain abrasives because its the only way to get the backbone to really stick or bond to the surface of the car (roughing it up). I would be more cautious of using abrasives in a product than those solvents..............
 
Intermezzo, yes, that link was very helpful.



Detailking, good info, but your post has sparked another question.



You say here,



The converse of this is that most high solvent systems contain abrasives because its the only way to get the backbone to really stick or bond to the surface of the car (roughing it up). I would be more cautious of using abrasives in a product than those solvents..............



So are you stating that high solvent systems contain abrasives? Or was that a typo in your post, you meant low solvent systems contain abrasives? I am just trying to determine if say Klasse Sealant Glaze would contain a decent amount of abrasives (I always have believed it contained 0 abrasives). I don't want to be using PPCL, and then AIO and KSG, all the while rubbing away on my clear with abrasives.



Or are you referring to Klasse AIO in terms of the abrasive content?



SJ
 
On good condition paint I would use SG only and save AIO on older paint that needs some sprucing up.



I was just making a generality that most older systems with hi solvents do contain abrasives.............



Also, I don't know why anyone would want to use AIO after PPCL. PPCL is mild and AIO is a bit harsher. That would be like going over something with 2000 grit sandpaper with water, and then going over it with 1000 grit sandpaper with a solvent. See my point..........
 
<blockquote class='ipsBlockquote' >

<em class='bbc'>Originally posted by DETAILKING [/i]
<strong class='bbc'>On good condition paint I would use SG only and save AIO on older paint that needs some sprucing up.

I was just making a generality that most older systems with hi solvents do contain abrasives.............

Also, I don't know why anyone would want to use AIO after PPCL. PPCL is mild and AIO is a bit harsher. That would be like going over something with 2000 grit sandpaper with water, and then going over it with 1000 grit sandpaper with a solvent. See my point.......... [/b]</blockquote>
Won't the chemicals in All In One strip the oils used in PPCL to hide swirls?
 
I am not getting into a debate over abrasiveness of AIO or PPCL(I know of DK's test of various polishes/sealants using an airplane propeller with black paint)



I can say this. I used the Porter Cable to prep and polish my 2001 Mustang this weekend. I used PPCL, followed by AIO. Now, I have a tinted clear(red). The first time I used a polish on it and found a slight red tint I flipped, until I realized that the clear coat was tinted, and so I might expect to see a slight tint on the rag when removing a polish.



I noted that after washing the foam pad that had PPCL on it, I had a slight red tint to the foam, but the AIO pad had no tint. I used the same speed 3 to 3.5 for both applying the PPCL and the AIO.





I do not know if there are any scientific applications there or not, but the PPCL did seem to remove more material based on the red tint of the foam pad after its use, where the AIO had 0 red tint on the pad.



DK knows his chemistry, that I do not dispute. I am just relating my experience with PPCL and AIO.
 
Joed, that's a good point. I know your question was directed to DK, but I usually go straight from PPCL to Zaino without any bonding issues. I PPCL'd a friend's car about 2-3 months ago and applied 2 layers of ZFX/Z-5 (with no wash in between) and he says the car is still beading like mad and is extremely slick.



I would imagine that the same would old true for Klasse SG. My guess is that whatever oils are left over from the PPCL are easily removed by the solvents in SG and Zaino. The oils from products like PPCL, SMR are not meant to be durable at all (as opposed to the oils in a carnauba wax) and wouldn't cause bonding problems by applying a polymer sealant over them.
 
<blockquote class='ipsBlockquote' >

<em class='bbc'>Originally posted by SJ [/i]
<strong class='bbc'>I am not getting into a debate over abrasiveness of AIO or PPCL(I know of DK's test of various polishes/sealants using an airplane propeller with black paint) [/b]</blockquote>
Looks like I'll sit this one out before someone blows a o-ring.
 
Joed,



No, no..I wasn't getting tee'd off at all. Just wanted everyone to know that I accepted DK's test of the AIO and PPCL abrasiveness thing. Isn't it funny how email can't always accurately convey the emotion or tone of a commen or one's real intent. And they say email is "hi-tech" communication. HA HA No....keep posting.



This is a good discussion. No o-rings blown here at all. I think it is interesting that DK found the AIO to be more abrasive in his test, while my usage this weekend showed that PPCL was more abrasive(more red tint on my foam pad). I can't explain it. I was actually suprised to see more tint with the PPCL. I thought it was very mild. I will say that I am using the "new" formulation of PPCL with the "chemical" smell.



Like I said..I want to hear everyone's opinon..
 
<blockquote class='ipsBlockquote' >

<em class='bbc'>Originally posted by SJ [/i]
<strong class='bbc'>Joed,

No, no..I wasn't getting tee'd off at all. [/b]</blockquote>
Oh jeepers creepers, I'm just messing with you, even if you were mad I would let it go in one ear and out the other, I just wanted to cause some confusion and throw everyone off a little. :-)

Now about this PPCL stuff, I haven't ever used it, one of those products that just hasn't ever found it's way to my front door. Until someone brags about how well it works I don't think I'll be ordering it anytime soon.
 
Like the Meg's MF pads, is it most efficient to use surbuf pads at ~4800 OPM with a traditional DA, or can you crank it up to speed 6 with better results?
 
Hey Connor I was checking out your website and those cars you've got on FB. Pretty impressive work you've done. Kinda jealous about that Lotus!

And I was kidding about that "shirtless" comment. :angel:
 
Thanks guys. I'm aware about the light pressure with the surbufs, but how come you can use heavy pressure with the Meg's MF pads? Wouldn't you not want the microfibers to flatten out? Or, does this not apply to MF pads?
 
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