Surbuf pad question...

07 z-oh-6 said:
Thanks guys. I'm aware about the light pressure with the surbufs, but how come you can use heavy pressure with the Meg's MF pads? Wouldn't you not want the microfibers to flatten out? Or, does this not apply to MF pads?
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Not really sure of the reason, but I think it might have something to do with the firmness of the foam used in the MF cutting pad vs the spongy foam on a Surbuf? Also, the Megs MF fibers are a bit longer and thicker than the Surbuf microfingers, so the compound could stick to the MF better and still work even when flat. I'm really just guessing on the reason, but you're right that the MF pads perform better under pressure than the Surbufs.

On another note, I know you're a Flex guy. Are you using Surbufs and the MF system with the Flex or a standard DA?
 
mikenap said:
you're right that the MF pads perform better under pressure than the Surbufs.
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I just read what I wrote, and I want to clarify for those unfamiliar with the two products mentioned. I'm not saying that the MF pads outperform Surbufs in cutting power, just that they work better with lots of pressure compared to Surbufs. I didn't want to confuse the issue.:wink:
 
With Sufbuff pads I usually get best performance at about speed 4-5 using a larger pad (with an appropriate sized backing plate) and light pressure. If you go with too high of a speed the fingers will get pulled flat. However because the fingers are firmer/shorter than the microfiber disks, the surfbuff pads can tolerate more rotational speed.

I personally find that I get better correction with the MF disks using firm pressure vs. heavy pressure.
 
th0001 said:
With Sufbuff pads I usually get best performance at about speed 4-5 using a larger pad (with an appropriate sized backing plate) and light pressure. If you go with too high of a speed the fingers will get pulled flat. However because the fingers are firmer/shorter than the microfiber disks, the surfbuff pads can tolerate more rotational speed.

I personally find that I get better correction with the MF disks using firm pressure vs. heavy pressure.
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Ok, here's a Surbuf question for you Todd, since you have more experience with them than I do. I've heard a few reputable detailers claim they can finish down ALMOST LSP ready with Surbufs, but when I use them I get nowhere near that kind of result. I usually use them at speed 6 and light pressure, and while they cut great, I'm always left with considerable haze afterward. That haze is easy to clear up usually in just one more step, but I never get close to "LSP" ready. Would dropping the speed help the Surbufs finish a little better, or are some people just blowing smoke?
 
mikenap said:
Ok, here's a Surbuf question for you Todd, since you have more experience with them than I do. I've heard a few reputable detailers claim they can finish down ALMOST LSP ready with Surbufs, but when I use them I get nowhere near that kind of result. I usually use them at speed 6 and light pressure, and while they cut great, I'm always left with considerable haze afterward. That haze is easy to clear up usually in just one more step, but I never get close to "LSP" ready. Would dropping the speed help the Surbufs finish a little better, or are some people just blowing smoke?
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Mike,
I think when some people say that they get almost lsp ready with the Surbufs, they are doing that on light colored cars. I have used the Surbufs on white and silver, and I was indeed able to get it to that level. However, when I used the same pads with the same machine and technique on a black car, the results were quite different.
I hope this helps.
 
bmw5541 said:
Mike,
I think when some people say that they get almost lsp ready with the Surbufs, they are doing that on light colored cars. I have used the Surbufs on white and silver, and I was indeed able to get it to that level. However, when I used the same pads with the same machine and technique on a black car, the results were quite different.
I hope this helps.
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Definitely, Barry. Thanks. Based on my own experience w/Surbufs, I find it a bit of a stretch to Surbuf a dark color and call it done!:D

Then again, my experience is nothing compared to some guys here!
 
th0001 said:
using a larger pad (with an appropriate sized backing plate)
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Todd,

I currently have 6.5" surbuf pads. I know with the MF system system, it's best to use a Meg's BP. Can you same be said with the surbuf pads? Or, can I get away with using an LC backing plate with the surbufs?

mikenap said:
On another note, I know you're a Flex guy. Are you using Surbufs and the MF system with the Flex or a standard DA?
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Mike,

Both of these pads do not work well with the Flex 3401, IME, especially the MF pads. Ever since the MF system came out, I have yet to try anything on the 3401 that cuts and finishes as good as the MF cutting discs and compound using a traditional DA. I'm using my GG DA more than the 3401 these days. I never thought I would be saying this!
 
100% agree on that last statement Mark. The Griots has surprising power, and with foam pads, I rarely go over 4.5 on it. Ever since I bought one as a "backup" while the G110 was out for warranty, it's the machine I grab first. The Flex gathers dust and the G110 has been relegated to 4" duty!

Also, before I tried the Surbufs, the Flex was my best friend. These days, we hardly speak. Kinda sad, since it's a fun machine. Feels like you've accomplished something if you can tame it, but the GG is just faster and easier to use these days.
 
mikenap said:
Ok, here's a Surbuf question for you Todd, since you have more experience with them than I do. I've heard a few reputable detailers claim they can finish down ALMOST LSP ready with Surbufs, but when I use them I get nowhere near that kind of result. I usually use them at speed 6 and light pressure, and while they cut great, I'm always left with considerable haze afterward. That haze is easy to clear up usually in just one more step, but I never get close to "LSP" ready. Would dropping the speed help the Surbufs finish a little better, or are some people just blowing smoke?
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Ahhh make, you can't put me on the spot like that ;). I cannot speak what other detailers are able to accomplish with a set of products nor what they may consider a great finish. All I can do is speak from my experience, standards (which may be higher or lower then some), and scientific theory.

From a scientific standpoint, you will get a better (more even finish) by using a product that has a more even surface. Think of sandpaper. 1500 grit has realtively few (because they larger) large abrasives. This means the peaks and valleys of the paper are more exaggerated. This allows the product to cut deep and provides plenty of space for abraded material to gather.

On the flip side, something like 3000 grit sandpaper is going to have smaller, finer abrasives packed tighter together. The difference between the high point of the abrasive and the valley between the abrasives is greatly reduced, and fact they are packed tighter/more uniform gives 3000 grit paper the ability to create a more even finish.

Micro fingers, such as those on the surbuff, are going to focus more of the polishing energy of the machine into a smaller, more focused area (the point/tip of the finger). This is going to increase the cutting action, but this is going to leave a less even finish (more swirled). The design of the microfinger surbuff pads are going to make it very difficult to leave a smooth uniform finish.

This isn't to say that surfbuff pads are incapable of creating a smooth, near LSP ready finish. I don't have a ton of experience with these pads, I used them 2 years ago, when Kevin first told me about them. After some discussions I thought (at the time) that it wouldn't be in the beginners best interest to carry these pads. This is because the PC (at the time) was considered a begineers tool, and the ability to remove material at near the same rate as a wool pad/rotary could lead to disastrous results. The PC has, however, gained popularity with many professional detailers and is no longer considered a begineer's tool which is why we felt it was a good time to stock these.

That said, in the gap from when I first used them, until we started carry them, I was involved with Meguiar's in beta/pre-beta testing with Microfiber disks, and once I began to figure these little guys out, I didn't really turn back. Guys like Bryan Burnworth, who was probably the first guy using these with regularity (about 2 years ago, long before they where stocked by any E-tailer) can do some amazing things with these pads. So experience places a huge role in the results people get. However I have checked with Bryan, Ryan Blanchette, and some others that have been using these and they don't believe they can get the surface near LSP ready. Sometimes it requires one additional step, and in rare cases it requires two additional steps.

Also, the term 'near-LSP' ready could have some different meanings to different people. For some it could mean they are able to finish with only one additional step, which I have seen quite often. For others it might mean they don't see any additional marring. I usually tend to get some haze (sometimes very noticeable on soft paints) but it usually cleans up very easily.
 
If folks are talking about a true quality finish, the surbuf will be followed by at least one other pad step. They do not finish down LSP ready, at least IME.
 
gmblack3 said:
If folks are talking about a true quality finish, the surbuf will be followed by at least one other pad step. They do not finish down LSP ready, at least IME.
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Can you still get good cutting action from 5.5" surbufs, or are bigger surfbufs that much better?
 
Wow, an incredibly detailed reply Todd, thanks! And thanks for peaking in Bryan, your Surbuf tips have bailed me out on more than one occasion. I'm kinda bummed that you pulled the links from your sig.:(
 
PorscheGuy997 said:
With a 5.5" Surbuf pad, it is so easy to add too much pressure and curl the fingers. Unless you are working in a tight spot, I would go at least 6.5".
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Cool. I currently have 6.5" and 4" for tight spaces. I think I'm set. I stay between 4 and 5 as far as speeds go.
 
PorscheGuy997 said:
With a 5.5" Surbuf pad, it is so easy to add too much pressure and curl the fingers. Unless you are working in a tight spot, I would go at least 6.5".
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Exactly. If you use a smaller pad you have to almost 'lift' up on the machine to keep from squishing the fingers and rendering them useless. Since the 6.5 inch machine will more evenly distribute the weight of of the machine (think of a guy laying down on needles) it will be less likely to bend the fingers.
 
mikenap said:
Wow, an incredibly detailed reply Todd, thanks! And thanks for peaking in Bryan, your Surbuf tips have bailed me out on more than one occasion. I'm kinda bummed that you pulled the links from your sig.:(
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I dont think I ever had links in my sig here. I dont think we can have them.
 
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