PC vs. UDM vs. Festool: Vibration comparision results are in

Just got back from the demo at my buddy's shop.



Disclaimer: I am not a 'professional' with years of experience and I have never used anything other than a rotary. I've never even used the Festool that we're using as a comparison. So, you may take my input with a grain of salt. However, I do very nice work.



I did a few areas on my vehicle with the Flex that were already excellent, but had some stray scratches (only seen in direct sunlight). I also hit a few areas that had deeper scratches.



Having nothing to compare it to, I guess I was impressed with (a) how well it did on the deeper scratches (I figured that it would be super-slow compared to a rotary) and (b) how quickly and easily it took me to perfect. I can get near-perfect with a rotary, but sometimes it takes me a few passes to remove the scratch pattern left by a foam pad and I usually have to make my last pass with very light pressure. With the Flex, I leaned on that thing and every pass left the paint perfect, even if I didn't have the pad perfectly level. Oh and this was in direct sunlight, too, so the paint was maybe a little softer than it would be under optimal conditions. In all, a very effective tool for how forgiving it is.



I ran it mostly on speed 4. Speed 6 (the highest), seemed to work OK but it just felt too fast, so I spent most of my time on speed 4.



In short, my buddy who's been painting and polishing show cars for over 30 years said 'I think I like it better than the Festool' after trying it on two different vehicles with dark paint. Now that was only with a 45-minute demo, but he's supposed to get the tool back on Friday to play with over the weekend.



Remember, this guy was in love with the Festool. I was actually a little worried that going into this thing he was going to try to prove that the Festool was better, which is not very objective. However, if he did go in that way, the tool's performance was impressive enough to turn him around.



The other thing he mentioned was the 'feel' was very different than the Festool. One major thing was that the rotation was opposite (I think that was already mentioned in the review). Oh and he tried to 'leave a hook', which apparently is a scratch pattern that is not desirable and happens if you're not polishing correctly. He can do that with the Festool, but was unable to do it with the Flex.



As far as price goes, if you can get this thing delivered for $300, you are getting a smoking deal. This thing lists for $480. I saw the dealer price sheet and whoever delivers these things to your door is certainly not making a killing at $300!!!



I'll post more information when my buddy really puts the hammer to it over the weekend.
 
No worries.



My buddy is very eager to try the Flex tool on a ceramic clear. That's going to be the acid test for him.



New Jags, Beamers, Mercedes and I think a few GM's (maybe Corvettes?) have ceramic clears. I've never polished one, but as some of you may know, they are a little more difficult to work with.
 
PolishAndWax said:
I'll post more information when my buddy really puts the hammer to it over the weekend.
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Nice write up. With the forced rotation, I wonder if the Flex can be used to apply LSPs as well. I have a PC, but I would much rather just use one machine instead of two.



Any thoughts?
 
toml said:
With the forced rotation, I wonder if the Flex can be used to apply LSPs as well.
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I don't see a reason why one should not be able to at least try it. At lowest speed it has only 160 RPMs and 3200 OPMs.
 
Hi guys



Not much of an update for you, although my buddy polished the black Jeep that the Flex manufacturer's rep owns with the Flex on Friday. They were both impressed!



So far, he reports that the Flex tool is 'more effective than the Festool, yet more forgiving'.



My buddy is saving his final judgment on the tool until after he's polished a vehicle with a ceramic clear. He said those are the toughest finishes to work with and if this tool does as well or better than the Festool, he'll be sold.



When he's done that, I'll post an update. Also, he'll be lending me the tool to try out on a few vehicles after the ceramic clear test (not that my input matters that much :rolleyes: )
 
I’m glad to see others are as seemingly enamored with the Flex as I. It’s proving itself to be quite the tool for me…



I'm interested to hear/see the results with some of the harder clears...
 
Final update (sorry for the delay).



Again, let me reiterate that I'm not a pro. However, my buddy is. He has been doing custom paint jobs for over 30 years. Very high-end work; like $20,000 (average) for a paint job. He charges around $1000 for a show-car detail which takes about 8-10 hours.



In any case, his final ruling is that he likes the Festool better. The Flex is more effective in that it is more aggressive, but when it comes down to making black paint look perfect, and I mean SHOW CAR QUALITY, he can't get there with the Flex. However, he can get there with the Festool.



Again, he uses the Festool for basically one purpose. Take a 98 out of 100 finish on a black (or very dark) car and make it a 100. He uses the rotary for everything else. So, although the overlap on the Flex is greater in that in does more of a rotary's job than the Festool does, if it can't take him to perfect, it's not a tool he wants in his arsenal.



Remember, we are talking about black paint in the sun or at night under flourescent lighting. Very subtle difference, but it's there. And this doesn't mean the Flex is a bad tool. I think it's an excellent tool. However, the end result on black paint was inferior to the Festool in every case we tried it on.



Believe me, we both wanted the Flex to work out. There were less rules (Festool will drop you as a distributor if you don't stick to their rules) and the price point was much better. However, he sells the Festool as a tool to take you to perfect, which the Flex would not do for him.



I appreciate anyone's feedback on this review (if you want to call it that), but nobody is going to convince me that the Flex will give a better end result in a post. If you think the Flex is the best, then we will have to 'agree to disagree'.



If you don't find yourself needing show-car quality on black or very dark finishes, I think this would be a great tool to use. It certainly blows away a PC or any other non-forced rotation RO tool and it is incredibly safe and easy to use. It does more of a rotary's job than the Festool, but certainly won't replace a rotary.



I will stick with my rotary for now. Maybe we'll try the Makita BO6040 next. I'm still looking for a more cost-effective alternative to the Festool 150 FEQ.
 
P&W, great post. I have found that on dark colors the PC orbit is a bit too aggressive and doesn't finish down fine enough with some polishes and pads. Reaching for an AIO improves the situation. I do believe that there is a place for a higher OPM smaller orbit machine-that might provide a perfect compromise.
 
I guess the question becomes whether that extra 2% is worth about 2 bills to pick up a Festool. I recently saw a Festool for $250 buy it now on ebay, but just couldn't bring myself to do it after dropping $269 for a new Flex...
 
DJ_JonnyV said:
I guess the question becomes whether that extra 2% is worth about 2 bills to pick up a Festool. I recently saw a Festool for $250 buy it now on ebay, but just couldn't bring myself to do it after dropping $269 for a new Flex...
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For me, it's not worth it, but I'm not giving up hope for a cheaper alternative that is as good or better.



It's all a matter of what kind of business you're in. If you charge $30,000 for a paint job or $1000 for a show detail, your customer most likely cares about the 2%, which means you do too. That's not the business I'm in, so I'm keeping my $440 for now.



The Festool is so expensive because the manufacturer controls the price. The Flex's MSRP is actually higher than the Festool at $480, but they don't care what you sell them at. You could sell them for $1 over your cost if you wanted. Festool would nuke you if you did that. That's why you (should) never see them for less than $440 anywhere, unless they're used or reconditioned. Same thing with the Festool 125; I think it's fixed price is $360.
 
DJ_JonnyV said:
I guess the question becomes whether that extra 2% is worth about 2 bills to pick up a Festool. I recently saw a Festool for $250 buy it now on ebay, but just couldn't bring myself to do it after dropping $269 for a new Flex...
Click to expand...

Where did you get the Flex for $269? If you only knew what the dealer price sheet looked like...
 
PolishAndWax said:
Where did you get the Flex for $269? If you only knew what the dealer price sheet looked like...
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I bought mine from Powerhouse Distributing for $269 + shipping ($12 UPS ground for me). Here is their number:



888-809-4749



As stated in other threads, these guys are extremely great to work with. They are located in Omaha, NE, and are just honest, down-to-earth folks that want to help their customers / potential customers. They shoot you straight, and are not looking to make a killing from the discussions I've had with them.



I know you had posted about the $480 MSRP before and I asked them about that at one point, and they said that's basically the pipe dream price. Like when you look at a tool manufacturer's website sometimes, or other products for that matter, and their MSRP is astronomical, but it can usually be had for considerably less from reputable retailers. It's the same thing here. Honestly, I asked them about the struggles I (and others) have had with some other retailers that folks have bought theirs through. They asked me how much others were charging, and when I replied with $300 or more, he was a little surprised at that.
 
DJ_JonnyV said:
I bought mine from Powerhouse Distributing for $269 + shipping ($12 UPS ground for me). Here is their number:



888-809-4749



As stated in other threads, these guys are extremely great to work with. They are located in Omaha, NE, and are just honest, down-to-earth folks that want to help their customers / potential customers. They shoot you straight, and are not looking to make a killing from the discussions I've had with them.



I know you had posted about the $480 MSRP before and I asked them about that at one point, and they said that's basically the pipe dream price. Like when you look at a tool manufacturer's website sometimes, or other products for that matter, and their MSRP is astronomical, but it can usually be had for considerably less from reputable retailers. It's the same thing here. Honestly, I asked them about the struggles I (and others) have had with some other retailers that folks have bought theirs through. They asked me how much others were charging, and when I replied with $300 or more, he was a little surprised at that.
Click to expand...

I would have to agree you on the 'pipe dream' price scenario except when it comes to the Festool. :) Try to find someone selling one (150 FEQ) for less than $440 brand new.



Also, like I said, I've seen the dealer price sheet and unless they're buying large lots, there's not a lot of margin to be had. However, there's certainly nothing wrong with that from a customer standpoint!



I still may end up with one of these, so I'll keep their info on file. I assume they don't have a website?



Thanks for the info.
 
FWIW: on my first UDM test run this weekend, I worked on my car for maybe 3-4 hours on and off with the UDM, I'm a big guy and I can hold the UDM with one hand on the unit no vibration to speak of, but when I use two hands and put one hand on the screw in handle on the right side of the unit, after a while my hand holding the handle will start to tingle, the vibration thru that handle is substantial, I considered using a mechanics glove to soften this vibration on that hand, but just checking, does this sound normal for the screw in handle to have that much vibration?
 
There have been fairly consistent reports that the side handle "causes" or allows more vibration. Many do not install it, and instead use either the grip you mentioned or a two handed grip with one hand on the body and the other on the rounded head above the pad.



Personally, even without the side handle and using the two handed grip, I find the vibrations to be troublesome when doing corrections, but not too bad for LSP or mild polishing.
 
I saw this thread talking about the Festool Rotex 150 & 125 and I may be able to clarify a couple of things.



The Festool USA dealer agreement forbids discounting and using discount distribution systems. That is why everybody charges the same price and why you don't see them on Amazon, EBay, etc.



The current price on the Rotex 150 (6" dia) is $495 and on the 125 (5" dia) is $395. The advantage of these over most polishers is that you not only get a great polisher but you get a sander that can take a piece of rough wood to a polish in a few minutes and if you connect one of their dust collectors, no dust.





Tom
 
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