Orange peel is good?

Just to add my opinion, I believe orange peel is a byproduct of paint JUST drying.



Here's why: I used to be big into model car building, and among the other builders I spoke with, all had a routine for smoothing down their finishes after the paint dried, since most paints (lacquers, acrylics, enamels) have solvents in them that evaporate while the paint is drying, leaving behind an inconsistent surface.



I would think it would be difficult to INTENTIONALLY make orange peel (factory or handspray) unless you used a paint that had a very FAST evaporating solvent or you thinned it down and painted with such light coats that the paint never actually had a chance to sort of "blob together and smooth out on an area".



When I'd paint those model cars, I used either Duplicolor lacquers or offbrand Enamels. More often than not, I had resulting orange peel when I used the Duplicolor lacquers that dried within a few hours versus the Enamels that had an oil-based solvent that would literally take 2 months to fully cure. If I had a lucky day with the right temperature and humidity, I could lay down a coat of enamel paint and have it come out close to perfect, but of course I couldn't actually work on the paint until it cured. Whenever I would spray with lacquers, I would feel like I put down a really nice coat because when the paint was wet, it was evenly laid and glossy, but when the paint cured the next day I'd find it to be eggshell-y or orangepeel-y.



It would seem that the VOC regulations that require automakers to use paints with less environmentally-harmful solvents would be akin to me painting with lacquers (although I believe the VOCs from when I painted with lacquers were much worse than when I painted with enamels). The solvent evaporates away from the paint much quicker, giving the paint less time to mix and mingle into a smooth finish.
 
Each manufacture has different guidelines at the OEM level for orange peel(intentional) and defects (not intentional, such as runs, dirt color variance). The intentional ones require a body shop to match to bring it back to OEM specs(match texture and color). Also, I was told that a manufacture can eliminate orange peel by using products with slower hardeners and higher solid content.(time in and out is a major factor). I just went to another shop (GM body shop) and their manager and painter confirmed that orange peel is intentional and makes the paint more durable than a flat finish. Think about it, orange peel allows less of the finish (tops of peel) to make contact with frictional type situations and gives it strength. Less micro marring shows on a heavy peeled finish than a flat one- Right?
 
truzoom said:
I would think it would be difficult to INTENTIONALLY make orange peel (factory or handspray) unless you used a paint that had a very FAST evaporating solvent or you thinned it down and painted with such light coats that the paint never actually had a chance to sort of "blob together and smooth out on an area".
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Actually, any freshly seasoned painter can produce orange peel relatively easy or they wouldn't have a job very long. The simplest way to create it is using low air pressure in your paint gun with a medium hardener. Much different than shooting it with spray bombs. :D
 
David Fermani said:
Each manufacture has different guidelines at the OEM level for orange peel(intentional) and defects (not intentional, such as runs, dirt color variance). The intentional ones require a body shop to match to bring it back to OEM specs(match texture and color). Also, I was told that a manufacture can eliminate orange peel by using products with slower hardeners and higher solid content.(time in and out is a major factor). I just went to another shop (GM body shop) and their manager and painter confirmed that orange peel is intentional and makes the paint more durable than a flat finish. Think about it, orange peel allows less of the finish (tops of peel) to make contact with frictional type situations and gives it strength. Less micro marring shows on a heavy peeled finish than a flat one- Right?
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I'm going to have to agree with David on this one. My dad works in the paint booth at the DaimlerChrysler's Jefferson North Plant, where they build Jeep Grand Cherokees and and Commanders. Well, a few years ago, he and all the other guys that work in the paint booth had to go to a special class because the germans were putting in new painting equipment(in fact, the plant was ready to start building vehicles with DuraClear, the Domestic equivalent of Mercedes' Ceramiclear, but have yet to open that NEW portion of the plant) and had to teach the tech how to get the new robots to apply the paint so they lay down the correct amount of orange peel; Yes, that's right, they had a class for the robot technicians in the paint booth, on how to produce orange peel on the vehicles. It does not surprise in the least that other OEM's do the exact same thing.
 
So now we're saying the mfr's intentionally peel it so that when John Q. Public takes the car to the Scratch n' Swirl, the brush marks don't show up as bad?? I feel sorry for the ad copy writer who needs to explain in the brochure how their approach is superior while the Lexus LS web site says "The sides of the LS are wet-sanded by hand during the paint application process. Wet-sanding removes imperfections in the paint’s surface so the result is a smoother, more lustrous finish. This process is rarely performed on production vehicles."



Maybe the DC website says "we give you a rougher, less lustrous finish so when you take your car to the tunnel wash, the swirls won't show as bad (and so we could spend less time and care making your car)". I'm not arguing with you guys, just shaking my head at the MBA CEO's and their logic. I'd bet anything the CEO of Lexus/Toyota is a technical guy and not a bean counter.
 
Think about this:

After reviewing a few recent threads posted here about how difficult it is maintaining a perfect finish on people's vehicles, I noticed that alot of these people have high end (low orange peeled) finishes [BMW/Mercedes/Audi/Lexus/Asian/European]. Do you think there is a direct correlation between low orange peeled vehicles and excessive marring??? Do we need the myth-busters???



Ever notice that most of the people that complain about dealer service departments doing a comp wash on their cars marring their paint have foreign cars? I know I'm reaching deep here, but just a thought!!



Buy American!!!!!!!!:usa
 
In a way if OP hides the imperfections more, perhaps that is better for most of the general public. I mean, obviously there are people like us, and the people who value what we do as detailers, but I bet there is still a huge majority who couldn't care less ya know?
 
David Fermani said:
Do you think there is a direct correlation between low orange peeled vehicles and excessive marring???
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Is marring on "OP equiped" vehicles less excessive or it is just less noticable? I am wondering because I do not understand how something like OP would make clear less prone to marring but I do see how it would create optical illusion of less marring. You will easier spot scratches on highly polished metal than you will on non-polished diamond board.



David Fermani said:
Ever notice that most of the people that complain about dealer service departments doing a comp wash on their cars marring their paint have foreign cars? I know I'm reaching deep here, but just a thought!!
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People with more expensive foreign cars are people that are more picky to start with.
 
I can see it now....."we're the best custom paint shop in the business, give us $5k and we can lay down a paint coat on your classic or exotic car with orange peel so thick that everyone will wish they had your durable paint job!":lol
 
I've read through the thread, hahahhaha-ed at the picture, and can see valid points to having orangepeel for the 'general public.' However I've gotta think, is Company X just saying 'orange peel is intentional and good' because they know it would cost $xx.xx ammount of money to paint a car w/o orangepeel, or at least significantly less? The other day I was stopped at a stoplight next to a Hummer H2 and I thought to myself, 'Man, that thing has some horrible op, if I had a H2 I would want to be driving on the mountains, not have it look as if they were stuck to my paint.' The reflection on the H2 was wavy and hazed, not something attractive to me. But maybe if it was freshly polished it would look better, I don't know.:hide:
 
Ever wonder why the H2s are so bad?? Maybe GM feels that orange peel goes along with the image of rough and rugged utility? You can't use the excuse that they produce too high of volumes to slow their production to smooth/flatten things out. I'd be willling to bet that GM intentionally wants *that* vehicle to have that specific appearance. They might also feel that at the same tiime they are doing their customers justice by have a paint finish that is as durable as the truck itself(image). I'll definately be asking the Hummer dealer BS next time.
 
The factory orange peel effect is intentionally there to hide minor flaws in the sheetmetal.



Dunno the differences between the US & Euro Mercs, BMWs, Ferraris, etc., but they have a terrible OP finish here. In fact, Mercedes has the most disgusting paint finish of any luxury nameplate I can think of.



Brabus S600 - shot at the Geneva Motor Show



Brabus_OP.jpg




Ferrari 612 Scaglietti - also in Geneva



17390ferrari_612_orange.jpg




Maybach 57



Maybach_OP.jpg
 
Bence said:
The factory orange peel effect is intentionally there to hide minor flaws in the sheetmetal.
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Now there's an explanation that makes sense. Perhaps this started with the use of double-galvanized sheet metal to maintain a uniform appearance between the double and single-side galvanized panels. I knew Bence would know!
 
Setec Astronomy said:
Now there's an explanation that makes sense. Perhaps this started with the use of double-galvanized sheet metal to maintain a uniform appearance between the double and single-side galvanized panels. I knew Bence would know!
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Keep trying to prove me wrong? :2thumbs: I don't think the material/structure of the panel has anything to do with OP! OP is consistent on all panels of a vehicle such as Mercedes CL/S/CLS which has alloy 1/4's, sheetmetal doors, plastic fenders and alloy hoods?? Even most Ford trucks have alloy hoods and sometimes fiberglass beds, and OP is consistent on ALL of it's panels! OP *can* hide some flaws, but every factory has QC people in place to catch *alot* of them. That's why if you walk a new car lot, you'll see tons of panels that have swirls in them right from the factory. The guy down the line sees a flaw (run, dirt, overspray) and they'll wet-sand and compound it and ship it down the line. They never finish out their polishing in most cases. I use to do alot of factory corrections at my shop for body shops and service departments under warranty.
 
I'm not trying to prove you wrong, but unless I missed it, you haven't explained how OP makes a paint finish more durable. And I wasn't suggesting that the OP is caused by the different types of panels, but since I'm familiar with making engineering tradeoffs, I can understand the concept of wanting OP to prevent different (material) panels looking different on the same car...if I OP them all, they all look the same, at least to the naked or untrained eye.
 
Setec Astronomy said:
I'm not trying to prove you wrong, but unless I missed it, you haven't explained how OP makes a paint finish more durable.
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Think of orange peel as tiny hills and valleys. Orange peel allows/exposes the tops of the hills to more damaging things such as friction from car washing(any style), tiny scrapes(not breaking the paint) and all other things that come in contact with it. It's the "sacrificial" part of the finish that give the total paint finish more longevity. Amy I gettting through at all? Think about this test: 2 black vehicles / 1 pretty flat and one very OP'd. Take a dirty sponge and wipe down both of them; micromarring the finish. The flat finsihed one will SHOW & HAVE more marring that the one with OP. Thus proving that OP protects more! Got it? :think2
 
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