Orange peel is good?

The 2 applications are totally different. Orange peel on one is human error where the other is planned with the aide of robots/computerized programs. I remember my 89 Mustang GT(single stage) had tons of orange peel(and acid rain).
 
I'm sure I can find plenty of references that say that OP is a paint defect....can you find one that says that it's desirable and intended on today's cars?



EDIT: Since GM is the king of orange peel, I looked in the newest GM factory manual I have access to, which is a 2005 Buick LaCrosse. In the Paint/Coatings section, orange peel is listed as a condition to be repaired, along with Swirl Marks, Overspray, Heavy Oxidation, Paint Runs and Sags, etc. They don't say anything like "whatever you do, don't remove the orange peel, we wanted that there!".
 
Setec Astronomy said:
I'm sure I can find plenty of references that say that OP is a paint defect....can you find one that says that it's desirable and intended on today's cars?
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It is a defect on repaints. Take a tour at the Ford Wayne Assembly plant in Michigan and they'll tell ya it's meant to be. Also, when I took a class with Spies Heckar they said it too. Do you think that OEMs spend all that money on their paint systems and can't eliminate orange peel? BMW and Mercedes have a fraction the peel that American cars do and they get painted in an assembly line.
 
How can it be a defect on repaints, if it's supposed to be there? If you're referring to the BMW and Mercedes lines in Germany, the VOC restrictions are likely different there.



As far as the OEM's spending lots of money on their paint lines and not being able to eliminate orange peel, no matter how much money they spend they still have to be VOC-compliant...I mean they can spend all they want building high-compression engines, but they still aren't going to be able to get leaded gas for them. Honestly, I figure they CAN'T paint without the orange peel and meet VOC, or there is no way they would turn out cars that look like that.
 
Setec Astronomy said:
Guys...that wide rectangular pedal will keep the automatics from rolling back on the hills...
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:har: :idea :clap:



I was waiting on someone to say that!



Also, OP is a sign of a cheap; quick and generally sloppy paint job. I hate it; it looks like crap and does nothing for durability. The only positive I can think that it performs is the irregular surface breaks up any major body panel waves/imperfections and future scratches that the paint will endure.
 
I know our 2006 Jeep Grand is covered in OP.. It has a really good finish in that it doesnt have many swirls which surprised me.. Even my dad thats not really into paint work noticed the OP and said it shouldnt be like that.. My 2004 Liberty doesnt have a drop of OP.
 
Setec Astronomy said:
How can it be a defect on repaints, if it's supposed to be there? If you're referring to the BMW and Mercedes lines in Germany, the VOC restrictions are likely different there.
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Because a human is painting it. A good painter can control (create and eliminate) the amount of orange peel in a repaint to match the factory finish. The factory also controls and monitors the amount they are producing too to keep it within varience. The Mercedes M, R & GL classes are produced in Alabama. Those vehicles have nearly the same level of orange peel that the overseas vehicles have?



Setec Astronomy said:
As far as the OEM's spending lots of money on their paint lines and not being able to eliminate orange peel, no matter how much money they spend they still have to be VOC-compliant...I mean they can spend all they want building high-compression engines, but they still aren't going to be able to get leaded gas for them. Honestly, I figure they CAN'T paint without the orange peel and meet VOC, or there is no way they would turn out cars that look like that.
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Why do Ferrari's & Maserati's have virtually no orange peel? They both get painted in somewhat high volume applications/assembly lines with the same water born paint system that Mercedes uses. They aren't sanding and buffing the orange peel off after production.



QUESTION: Do you think orange peel gives paint more durability and added protection?
 
Hey, I'm not trying to have a fight here. You're the guy in the auto business. I painted a car once, and orange peel meant I screwed it up. If orange peel is the new gloss, so be it.



PS Even if orange peel is the new gloss, Ferrari and Maserati DO NOT have high volume production lines like M-B or anything else. Even if they are up to 4000 Ferrari's a year...there are GM complexes that do that in a DAY.
 
Setec Astronomy said:
Hey, I'm not trying to have a fight here. You're the guy in the auto business. I painted a car once, and orange peel meant I screwed it up. If orange peel is the new gloss, so be it.



PS Even if orange peel is the new gloss, Ferrari and Maserati DO NOT have high volume production lines like M-B or anything else. Even if they are up to 4000 Ferrari's a year...there are GM complexes that do that in a DAY.
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Mike - No harm meant. I'm just having a healthy debate. Please don't feel I'm attacking you. I find your opinions very valuable and intelligible.



BTW: Check out the National Geographic video of the Ferrari 599 getting produced in Italy. Go go Google video and watch from the 20 - 30 minute mark where they show it being painted. It's prettly close to most high voume operations. I think the Ford plant I visited only produced a few 100 trucks there each day where Ferrari does a few dozen.



Here's the link:

The 599 GTB Fiorano in the making
 
hayguys1xy2.jpg
 
I personally think orange peel has nothing to do with how thick the clear is. You can have 15 clear coats and wet-sand only the top one and have no peel.



Now if you have one clear and it is sprayed with peel and you wet-sand it, yes it is thinner afterwards. But if it has none from the start, or if you have multiple, then it will not be thinner than one with peel.
 
Wait so is the orange peel on the top coat of paint or on the color coat? I always thought it was the color coat that was lumpy and that it's so visible because the clear magnifies it.
 
Setec Astronomy said:
As far as achieving mold separation on the "back" of a part...a mold has two halves...I dunno how you can get both parting lines on one side of the part.
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You can at the very least hide the mold lines behind other pieces or put them in a place that is not plainly visible. Many other automakers don't have a problem doing that. It's as if the domestic manufacturers are showcasing their mold lines.
 
I'm with Setec on this one . . . the increased orange peel seen in in paint these days is the result of new VOC regs, and certainly not a desired effect. If it could be eliminated without large costs, I'm sure it would be. However, especially with the big auto manufacturers that do huge volume, spending another $100 on the paint process for every car cuts vast amounts of profit from their bottom line. I believe that higher end marques are spending more on the paint process, and that's why you (usually) see less orange peel on lower-volume, high-dollar cars. Yes, the paint line probably looks similar at Ford vs. Ferrari, but that's no indication of the type or quality of the paint, the precision of the robots and sprayers, etc. Also, if an overseas auto plant should happen to have looser VOC regs to deal with, they'll have an advantage over US-based mfrs. when it comes to paint.



IMO, orange peel is definitely a paint defect.



My $1.05,

Tort
 
Hindsight said:
You can at the very least hide the mold lines behind other pieces or put them in a place that is not plainly visible. Many other automakers don't have a problem doing that. It's as if the domestic manufacturers are showcasing their mold lines.
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I was going to mention that the parting lines could be at the edge of the part etc...but was tired of typing :o. Thanks for pointing that out :)
 
Gee, for a "defect" as great as orange peel, manufactures really do produce it pretty consistantly. Can something be called a defect if it's done intentionally? Keep in mind that orange peel isn't something that just came about, it's been around for several decades. I just visited the Body Shop Manager of Maroone Ford (Auto Nation) and he confirmed that Ford wants orange peel in their finishes and they won't warranty removing/sanding it unless it is off/doesn't match on adjacent panels. He told me that when doing warranty work, there's actually a recipe/guideline/chart they are supposed to follow to bring the finish back to original specs. They are also a Mercedes certified repair shop too and Mercedes will actually pay them to wet-sand and buff on a warranty repair(bringing it back to original specs), where Ford (and many others manufacturers) won't.
 
Couldn't it be that they can't achieve a non-orange peel finish at the factory, so when a repair is done they want it OP'd to match? I kinda doubt any EPA inspectors are hanging around the dealer bodyshop exhaust stack, but I guarantee they are checking what comes out of Ford's.



What is the reason the BS Mgr. gave for Ford wanting OP in their finish? Is there a functional reason?
 
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