Orange peel is good?

But when I use my Clay Magic clay I won't be able to remove the contaminants down in the valleys! There's no need for sarcasm, I understand what you are saying, and I believe that it is true, I just don't accept that that is the reason it is done. How about I agree with you that the OEM's do it on purpose, but I accept Bence's explanation as to why; is that a fair compromise? I'll even admit I was wrong that the OEM's don't do it on purpose, now, can I please be entitled to my own opinion as to why? Unless, once again, you can provide some sort of documented evidence, and once again, I haven't reread all your posts, but IIRC you have quoted several Body Shop Managers and others in the refinish business who state unequivocally that it is done on purpose, but I don't think they specified WHY.



Most of what we talk about here on Autopia is all opinions, very little of the "facts" bandied about are supportable with engineering or scientific reference (longevity, layering, is the product still there if the beading stops, etc.), and this just seems to be one other. The only "facts" that have been presented here are that a few people in the refinish industry, one refinish seminar, and one Jeep painter have said that the OP is supposed to be there. Based on that anecdotal evidence, and the words of an automotove journalist who has been in more auto plants than any of us ever will be, I will accept that the OP is supposed to be there. Pardon me if my OEM brain likes the journalists' explanation as to why, but that will be my OPINION as to why until I am presented with some FACTS to the contrary.
 
OK, you can side with the journalist that has been in the plants and I'll side with the workers at the plant and the people that supply them training, support, & product. :tribe: :bolt :geez :chuckle:
 
David Fermani said:
Maybe GM feels that orange peel goes along with the image of rough and rugged utility?
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I doubt they went so far in their thinking. Otherwise they wouldn't be putting polished chrome right next to orange peel.
 
David Fermani said:
Think of orange peel as tiny hills and valleys. Orange peel allows/exposes the tops of the hills to more damaging things such as friction from car washing(any style), tiny scrapes(not breaking the paint) and all other things that come in contact with it. It's the "sacrificial" part of the finish that give the total paint finish more longevity. Think about this test: 2 black vehicles / 1 pretty flat and one very OP'd. Take a dirty sponge and wipe down both of them; micromarring the finish. The flat finsihed one will SHOW & HAVE more marring that the one with OP. Thus proving that OP protects more!
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I guess if you were washing with a sanding block, this might be true given the fact that the block isn't very flexible. But I don't ever recall seeing swirl marks only on the high points of the OP on a vehicle. Besides, the difference in height in these "hills and valleys" is so miniscule that I have a hard time believing a sponge won't be able to tough the whole surface of the paint due to them.



As far as a difference in marring on OP paint vs. non OP paint, it seems logical to me that it's very likely that one notices more marring on the non OP paint simply because it's a perfectly smooth surface to begin with so it may give the illusion of having more marring in comparison to the paint w/OP.



Ford, for example, has some nasty OP on their cars, yet Jaguars come with some of the smoothest paint from any manufacturer. Same with Honda, very smooth paint. I wish my Monte Carlo's paint was as smooth as the paint on my Civic was. It pained me to get that thing repainted simply because the factory paint was OP free and I knew I wouldn't be able to pay the kind of money the body shop would require in order for me to get a finish like that.
 
Take some agressive clay (like Clay Magic Red) and try to abade an OP'd finish. Is the whole surface equally adadded? No. More than likely the top of the OP is *more* than the base. That's becasue the OP is guarding/protecting/shielding the finish. Plus, clay isn't anything close to a sanding block so I guess it's not that miniscule of a difference like you mentioned.
 
David Fermani said:
Take some agressive clay (like Clay Magic Red) and try to abade an OP'd finish. Is the whole surface equally adadded? No. More than likely the top of the OP is *more* than the base. That's becasue the OP is guarding/protecting/shielding the finish. Plus, clay isn't anything close to a sanding block so I guess it's not that miniscule of a difference like you mentioned.
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So the way I understand it, the "finish" is only the valleys, not the hills:grinno:



The OP is part of the finish, so if it's getting abraded then how is it protecting anything? Besides, I think it would be a safe bet that more people use automatic car washes and even those horrendous hand washing places, than clay their car. So show documentation that OP lessens swirls and marring on the finish (valleys, according to you) under those circumstances , when brushes are repeatedly striking the paint and dirty towels are being dragged all over the vehicle after the brushes have repeatedly struck the paint.
 
DreamersPersuit said:
worked at a lexus dealership and the IS/ES/RX/GX had some awful orange peel which being a highline car i was alittle disapointed......
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Really? I just seen a new IS 300 yesterday and it was like looking in a mirror.
 
rkf76 said:
Really? I just seen a new IS 300 yesterday and it was like looking in a mirror.
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LOL yes they have orange peel....i have detailed them for 3 years...the doors are the bad spot.....The LS not so much ...now oddly enough when the new GS first came out it hardly had any now it does??...weird....i also was in charge of inspecting the lexus as they came in so i got to see all the faults they had ..:) ..the rx is back bumper has a bigger gap one side ...the new IS front bumper has a big gap on the drivers side under the light ...the es molding dosnt line up...nor does it on the rx....just stupid stuff in the end i guess....the molding on the gs wasnt always plush on each door...each one has character :).....eh but no car is perfect....there is a lot here in florida loaded with lemon lawed lexus....as i am sure there is with other cars
 
rkf76 said:
So the way I understand it, the "finish" is only the valleys, not the hills:grinno:
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The finish is the entire coat of paint (including the "hills and valleys").





rkf76 said:
The OP is part of the finish, so if it's getting abraded then how is it protecting anything?
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On a very OP'd finish with micomarring, the top/most outer section of the finish ("the hills") is more likely to be damaged that the lower/sunken in part(" the valleys"). Make sense?



rkf76 said:
Besides, I think it would be a safe bet that more people use automatic car washes and even those horrendous hand washing places, than clay their car.
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I think the opposite. I'd feel less uncomfortable having a complete retard clay my car with mild clay (Blue Clay Magic) than giving him a sponge and some car wash soap and having them wash it. People are constantly posting here about their wash induced micromarring. Not too many post about mild clay screwing their finish up.



rkf76 said:
So show documentation that OP lessens swirls and marring on the finish (valleys, according to you) under those circumstances , when brushes are repeatedly striking the paint and dirty towels are being dragged all over the vehicle after the brushes have repeatedly struck the paint.
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Run a black F-150 and a black BMW thru the worst run car wash in town and grap a paint magnifying glass and see the difference. Or, contact a paint engineer, body shop manager, paint manufacturer, and ask them why OP is on almost every car assembly line manufactured today. It's not a secret and I'm sure they won't tell you it's there by mistake.
 
Certainly an interesting discussion, as I had originally thought that orange peel is BAD BAD BAD. Maybe when the PPG paint guy comes to my dad's computer store, I'll ask him next time :)
 
Wait so, at this point in the thread is it okay to say this:



Auto mfgs. do NOT wetsand the finishes on vehicles to get rid of orangepeel because it provides protection for the paint.



(I guess you'd have to ignore the whole cost-effectiveness part of it)



I'm just not following what the points of this debate are.



The automobile manufacturers PURPOSELY DO NOT put a SMOOTH REFLECTIVE FINISH on their cars?



What about Mercedes-Benz Ceramiclear? Isn't it already tough enough that they don't need to intentionally put orangepeel?
 
David Fermani said:
The finish is the entire coat of paint (including the "hills and valleys").
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Exactly!! So if the finish is getting marred, even if it's only on the "hills", how do you figure that the texture aka OP is protecting the finish if it's the finish that's getting marred? I can't think of one swirled mess of a car where I thought "damn, i'm sure glad this car has orange peel which protected the finish."







David Fermani said:
On a very OP'd finish with micomarring, the top/most outer section of the finish ("the hills") is more likely to be damaged that the lower/sunken in part(" the valleys").
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So what exactly is your point? The "hills" are every bit as much a part of the finish as the "valleys" so if the hills are getting marred then the finish is getting marred so i'm not understanding how you figure that op protects the finish. The finish is getting marred! Make sense?





David Fermani said:
I think the opposite. I'd feel less uncomfortable having a complete retard clay my car with mild clay (Blue Clay Magic) than giving him a sponge and some car wash soap and having them wash it. People are constantly posting here about their wash induced micromarring. Not too many post about mild clay screwing their finish up.
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You think more people clay their car than use those automatic and "hand wash" car wash places? :spit:



Thank you for helping me make my point though, that wash induced marring is infinitely more common and relevant than the marring induced by agressive clay :up And because it's more common, that's what should be considered as your "proof" that OP protects the finish. The only one's who are gonna see agressive clay induced marring are either body shop folks or us autopians.





David Fermani said:
Run a black F-150 and a black BMW thru the worst run car wash in town and grap a paint magnifying glass and see the difference. Or, contact a paint engineer, body shop manager, paint manufacturer, and ask them why OP is on almost every car assembly line manufactured today. It's not a secret and I'm sure they won't tell you it's there by mistake.
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Of course they won't say it's there by mistake, and if they told me it's there to protect the finish I'd probably do something like this ---->:spit:



I think in order for them to get an OP free finish they'd have to put more coats of paint in thinner layers, they are already crunched for time as is so surely they don't want to hold things up even longer to achieve the OP free finish we all wish they would. I have no doubt they could accomplish it, just like I have no doubt that Chevrolet knows that steel braided brake lines provide more responsive and firm brake pedal by eliminating the “spongy� feel that often accompanies stock rubber brake lines, yet they still provide rubber brake lines.
 
David Fermani said:
Take some agressive clay (like Clay Magic Red) and try to abade an OP'd finish. Is the whole surface equally adadded? No. More than likely the top of the OP is *more* than the base. That's becasue the OP is guarding/protecting/shielding the finish. Plus, clay isn't anything close to a sanding block so I guess it's not that miniscule of a difference like you mentioned.
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So you're saying that the nearly unmeasurable height difference between the peaks and the valleys of the OP will protect the valleys from pliable clay to a significantly noticeable degree? Or that a scratch and swirl car wash will have the bristles somehow deflected by the .01 mm difference in height between the highs and lows of the paint, thus protecting the lows even with the pressure the brushes are applied with?



Hmmmm, I gotta say it all sounds a bit fishy.
 
Super_Herb said:
So you're saying that the nearly unmeasurable height difference between the peaks and the valleys of the OP will protect the valleys from pliable clay to a significantly noticeable degree? Or that a scratch and swirl car wash will have the bristles somehow deflected by the .01 mm difference in height between the highs and lows of the paint, thus protecting the lows even with the pressure the brushes are applied with?



Hmmmm, I gotta say it all sounds a bit fishy.
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I'm with you on this one.



I could understand if OP was a totally separate layer of material on top of the finish, but it's simply describing the texture of the finish so it's incomprehensible how the texture of the finish can protect the finish:nixweiss



Listening to the explanation, one would think OP is an added layer on top of the finish.
 
Very interesting thread guys!



I hate the OP on my Mazda, and got to learn how to get rid of it before doing my customers' cars.



What is the difference between wetsanding and machine polishing? Why doesn't machine polishing remove OP? Haven't read of anyone NOT wetsanding to remove OP.



Gd day,

Jeremiah
 
David Fermani said:
and ask them why OP is on almost every car assembly line manufactured today. It's not a secret and I'm sure they won't tell you it's there by mistake.
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I guess I got a good one then...



shine003.jpg




15k VW hatchback, nearly 0 peel.



Orange peel is on most cars because it cost more to paint it without it. It's plain and simple economics... Why are cheapo american cars the worst offenders? See above.



David-

Your durability argument is inherently flawed, in my opinion. How can one claim that (given equal thickness) a smooth layer is less durable than a microscopically bumpy layer of the same material? It doesn't make much sense to me.
 
violentveedub said:
I guess I got a good one then...
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No, no, no! Haven't you been listening? Orange peel is supposed to be there, so that makes your near flawless mirror reflection . . . a defect?



Hmmm. I need some defective paint; it sure does look good.



Here's a link where Dan Stauft, Paint Process Engineer at GM's Bowling Green assembly plant discusses orange peel and Corvette paint quality: Orange Peel as it Applies to Corvette Paint Quality - Corvette Action Center



Useful quoted bit from the linked article:
Orange peel is the result of an applied coat of paint (basecoat, clearcoat, or both) that doesn't flow out or level fully. Keeping in mind that paint is basically applied as a liquified plastic, the cause of peel is that the paint either doesn't stay liquid long enough to completely flow or the material is to viscous to allow it to flow out. In either case, the paint ceases to flow before the surface is completely level. The result of this is a lumpy orlopey surface that resembles the peel of an orange, hence "orange peel. So, to eliminiate this problem, you lower the viscosity or simply keep the paint liquid longer, right? This may not be a s easy as it seems. Solvent-borne paints are categorized by the ratio of paint solids (resins, pigments, binders, etc.) to liquids (solvents).



In the US, manufacturers are required to use high solids paints, with a ratio of about 60% solids to 40% solvent. To better flow the paint out, we need to add more solvent. The problem is that the EPA won't let us add aditional solvents. These solvent restrictins stem from the EPA's limits on Volatile Organic Compounds (VOCs). VOCs, which are in almost all solvents, are a cause of low level ozone - read smog - forcing these restrictions. In other countries, these restrictions either don't exist or are more lenient, allowing manufacturers to use low solids paints (as low as 30% solids to 70% solvent), which tend to have a smoother appearance. To combat the US handicap generated partially by EPA restrictions, paint companies are developing new technologies.



Waterborne paints, for example, are essentially low solids paints (up to 60% solvent), but they are legal because de-ionized water (not VOC) is a large part of the solvent package. In addition to the low solids aspect, waterborne paints have many other neat properties that help improve the performance and appearance.



As the new technology paints and application methods are implemented (within the next year or so for Corvette, US manufacturers will have the ability to level the appearance playing field between themselves and the international competition.
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I re-iterate: IMO, orange peel is a paint defect. If not, why would this GM paint engineer even care about trying to minimize it?



Tort
 
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