new & improved PO106ff

[Holden_C04]

Regardless of the matter at hand, a little bit less indignation and a little bit more respect from all involved would aid in a positive conclusion from this thread.

 

[detaildoc]

Phil has indeed been carrying this for a while, so this 106FA is not a new product at all. It is my understanding that 106FA is not an improved version of FF, but rather a different version with longer working time.

 

[SuperBee364]

Regardless of the matter at hand, a little bit less indignation and a little bit more respect from all involved would aid in a positive conclusion from this thread.

Agreed. I'm just as guilty of doing what I'm accusing Mr. Silver of. It's geting no where, fast. Especially since he's convinced that his product is perfect, and his reponses are appropriate to the situation.



I held my tongue all last year when this argument raged, knowing that he would stick to his guns with his "maybe you'll someday be as good as our product" responses. I don't know why I thought this time would be any different.

 

[Bigpoppa3346]

Lol, I seriously have never seen anyone simply deny something like what is going on here. How many people have experienced 106 filling? Like, most experienced detailers on this site? I guess all of our "perceptions" must be FUBAR, then, and 106 is the miracle product? Face it, yeah, maybe there is nothing in the contents of 106 that cause filling, but when it hits paint, and you work it, and wipe off, then a number of months later there is micromarring/hologramming re-appearing, then there is filling going on.



Whatever, it's been a rough day, it's hot, and the car I'm working on won't correct for sh!t.

 

[baseballlover1]

Hey jeff. Here is a challenge. You are wholeheartedly saying that 106 does not fill and has NO ability to fill. Does this product in question (106) have mineral oil as the lubricant? The answer i am guessing is yes. Mineral oil fills.



In a couple weeks i am going to be passing through new york in a few days. I will stop by your office and prove to you that 106 does fill. If i do this then you give me rights to resell your products. No questions asked.



By the way I am daniel wendell. The person who called you the other day.

 

[P1et]

Not for the sake of argument, just for my personal knowledge, but isn't Menzerna made for very specific environments, where the temperature, humidity, type of paint, and machinery is taken into consideration? Since Menzerna was never made for the shade-tree detailer, could it be that "errors" are creeping into the product by the way we are using it?



On a personal note, I have always been very pleased with my SIP (when it's not humid outside) and above all, my 85RD.

 

[Todd@RUPES]

For the record, nobody was called a liar. Menzerna will not make a statement that is false, even if suggested by a loyal customer.

From 6speedonline.com

But please do not create a false story and attribute it to a third party conversation.

Sounds like you called me a liar?

We manufacture and sell buffing compounds and polish to professionals and industrial customers. We don't intentionally create bad blood, however we cannot prevent some people from getting themselves confused. If someone insists that a product in some way performs differently than designed and they wish to maintain that belief, then so be it. I can only hope that their skill level improves to match the quality of the product.

Just to clarify, when you say "we" do you mean Menzerna or Menzerna USA (which to my knowledge does no manufacturing)? If I am wrong I would love to be corrected, but to my knowledge you are an importer and distributor, correct?



As far as questioning the skill level of the users and blaming the product on them, your rather childish comment makes no sense for several reasons...



1) You claim it cannot fill, period. So how does miss use make the product do somethign that it simply cannot do. If it has zero potenital for product masking, then no matter who uses it, you cannot trick the product into doing something it cannot.



If it absolutely cannot fill then guess what.... it cannot fill no matter who uses it. This is common logic which you have failed to acknowledge.



2) Here is a list of people you have included in your answer (people who have publically stated that Menzerna fills. I will not include the names of over 40 people who have PM'd me privately out of respect. I would not want them pubically outed as somebody whom Jeff Silver doesn't believe has the skill to use the products he imports).



Scott Harris aka Scott Wax

Kevin aka Picus

Ryan Blanchette aka rydawg

David Fermani aka David Fermani

Pat McCall aka Pats300ZX

Jason aka DeepGlossAutoSaloon

Brian Brice aka VASuperShine





a quick search of this forum (if you have the time) will reveal 15 or so more names.



The funny thing about this names I listed is each of these guys is amongst the most respected detailers in the WORLD, and honestly, each of there standards is much higher then the OEM and bodyshop guys you hold in such regard.



Infact, if Menzerna is so good then why have I had to polish buffer trails out of 7 brand new (off the crate) Mercedes??? I mean surely if the OEM guys and bodyshops guys where so good I wouldn't get paid to teach them how to use your products.



The problem is that the detailers on this site who have noticed the flaw in the products you import are much more picky and have a much better eye then the body shop guys whose opinions you seem to credit.

n a thread discussing the PO106 polish line, you felt it necessary to once again bring up a trait you claim to have seen called filling. No one can challenge your perception, and certainly I never did. I did state a fact that you refuse to accept, in that there is nothing in the contents that will cause filling.

Jeff I HIGHLY suggest you try this test. Take mineral oil, polish the car with a fine buffing pad (on swirled paint) and remove. Now carefully observe the section you just polished vs the unpolished section and please tell me if you don't notice that the mineral oil has "filled" in the defects.



Mineral oil is contained in your products, and when I spoke to a rep from England, he clearly stated that 106 contains a lubricating wax (I cannot verify the wax statement as it is third party, but perhaps you could clarify. I believe he mentioned it was Parrafin wax, but I could be very wrong). Menzerna does use an oil in water emulsion as a carrier, and if you do not think that this, by itself, can fill products I heavly suggest that you research the ingrediants yourself before making bold claims.



The top detailers (the ones who fix the OEM mistakes made by your coveted experts) in the world have publically stated that they have witnessed Menzerna filling.



I wish you would have handled it better. Many product lines that I know of would have completely investigated the claims and researched the problem thoroughly. You instead took a defensive (and sometimes offensive such as when you called me a liar) approach and claimed that the top detailers are wrong. I understand you are in bussiness to make money and the truth is that high end detailers comprise a very small piece of your financial pie, but I think it shows an alarming amount of hubris for you to ignore the problem.

 

[Todd@RUPES]

Lol, I seriously have never seen anyone simply deny something like what is going on here. How many people have experienced 106 filling? Like, most experienced detailers on this site? I guess all of our "perceptions" must be FUBAR, then, and 106 is the miracle product? Face it, yeah, maybe there is nothing in the contents of 106 that cause filling, but when it hits paint, and you work it, and wipe off, then a number of months later there is micromarring/hologramming re-appearing, then there is filling going on.



Whatever, it's been a rough day, it's hot, and the car I'm working on won't correct for sh!t.

Isn't also amazing that almost all dark color Mercedes come off the crate with some degree of micromarring... I won't touch body shops for obvious reasons...

 

[Todd@RUPES]

Personally, it pains me to put money into Jeff Silver's pocket. I actually love Menzerna products just not the guy who IMPORTS them.

 

[Legacy]

WOW love it!

 

[imported_Ivan Rajic]

WOW love it!

I just hope this goes somewhere...

 

[Legacy]

I just hope this goes somewhere...

Its beyond somewhere.

 

[SpoiledMan]

Scott Harris aka Scott Wax

Kevin aka Picus

Ryan Blanchette aka rydawg

David Fermani aka David Fermani

Pat McCall aka Pats300ZX

Jason aka DeepGlossAutoSaloon

Brian Brice aka VASuperShine

Please add *Spoiledman* to the list.

 

[imported_Denzil]

SuperBee364, thanks for the kind words. I tend to spend time running a business and this leave me little opportunity (or interest) to correct misconceptions, errors, and falsehoods.



Case in point: My name is Jeff Silver, not Silverman.

If you would like information from the factory source, just send an email to [email protected] and i will give you a reply. This is preferred to what many do on various forums, namely post thoughts as facts without any substantiation.



We manufacture and sell buffing compounds and polish to professionals and industrial customers. We don't intentionally create bad blood, however we cannot prevent some people from getting themselves confused. If someone insists that a product in some way performs differently than designed and they wish to maintain that belief, then so be it. I can only hope that their skill level improves to match the quality of the product.



If you would like to present evidence to the contrary, and not just repeat the self-serving comments from others with an ax to grind, I would be glad to pass it along to our lab.



If you are also having difficulty with understanding product number, please contact your distributor or send me an email. In the future, we will be using product names instead of numbers, so this should help you out. Again, any questions you still have with figuring out product types can be answered by our knowledgeable distributors.

For the record, nobody was called a liar. Menzerna will not make a statement that is false, even if suggested by a loyal customer.

Ivan, a forum could be a good place to freely exchange information and experiences amongst detailers. However no one is under any obligation to divulge all proprietary information. This is especially true for manufacturers that must maintain confidentiality of formula and marketing decisions. To do otherwise would be irresponsible and foolish.

Mr. SuerBee364,



In a thread discussing the PO106 polish line, you felt it necessary to once again bring up a trait you claim to have seen called filling. No one can challenge your perception, and certainly I never did. I did state a fact that you refuse to accept, in that there is nothing in the contents that will cause filling.



The information I am providing to you is based on actual product knowledge and independent testing by laboratories and by the many industries that are successfully using our product. These include the factories that are producing the parts and assembled automobiles that you ultimately detail.



I do find your name calling to be immature and uncalled for and not in the spirit of honest discussion or dissent.



My experience in the polishing industry has taught me that in the vast majority of cases, regardless of the product being used and with all of the variables associated with the polishing operation, it is rarely the product that is the cause of a problem. This is especially the case with a mature product that has been on the market for years producing superior result. We assist our customers with their wide variety of polishing issues every day, and it is very gratifying to hear that they ultimately were able to resolve their issue.



As for your indignant outrage that I would call into question the competence of an individual that you have profound reverence for, someone that was not part of this discussion, nor mentioned in any way, I can't help you here. No offense was intended and none should be taken.



If you really are interested in discussing polishing issues, I invite your to do what many do every day and call my office. I don't believe you ever have. Public foot stomping is not very becoming for a professional.

Wow, definitely a hypocrite.



Professionals don't call their customers/professionals liars and state that Menzerna's filling issue is attributed to "user error". In fact, a true professional would give the benefit of the doubt to the customer/professional and responsibly solve the issue with some sort of resolution and not bonking us on the head with the "you don't know how to use my product at all so therefore it doesn't fill" statement.



:goodjob

 

[imported_Ivan Rajic]

Ivan, a forum could be a good place to freely exchange information and experiences amongst detailers. However no one is under any obligation to divulge all proprietary information. This is especially true for manufacturers that must maintain confidentiality of formula and marketing decisions. To do otherwise would be irresponsible and foolish.

There is a big difference in revealing a formula of a certain polish vs. stating who the manufacturer actually is... If I came on here and said "Hey guys, I make FMJ and sell it as Menzerna product" you would correct me... people here, myself included, are simply trying to figure out who makes it, that's all.



Oh and what I'm talking about is not based at all on the filling issue, as I'm in the middle of it... I've never done thorough testing due to the finish always being as I expect it after a 50/50 wipe down and no holograms or swirls revealed themselves with washes following the detail... I will however try this out tomorrow and see what happens.

 

[SuperBee364]

Personally, it pains me to put money into Jeff Silver's pocket. I actually love Menzerna products just not the guy who IMPORTS them.

From now on, I won't be putting any money in Mr. Silver's pocket. I'll gladly pay the extra to have Menzerna products shipped directly from Europe. If anyone else would like to participate in group buys from Europe to bypass Mr. Silver, just let me know.

 

[imported_Bence]

I can attest the filling of 106FF and RE5 too. I did some testing just for fun, with a bunch of finishing polishes (intentional fillers like M80, or non-filling OEM like Scholl S40, etc.). I used 100 ppi finessing pads to minimize the pad abrasion issue, a Makita 9227CB rotary, a Bosch PEX270AE DA buffer, 1Z Acrysol+straight isopropyl alcohol wipedowns before and after polishing, 1150 watts of combined (4200K metal halide and halogen) lighting, plus an adjustable mirror to project sunlight directly to the spot. I did countless passes, varying working times, pressures, arm speeds, RPMs/OPMs. The paint itself was an extremely sensitive Honda black, so it showed perfectly what was going on on the micro level under the pad.



The results: where oils were deposited, aka an even buffing film was present, the surface looked 95-100% defect free after removal. However, after the Acrysol/IPA wipedown, using an extremely plush MF with 6 mm nap, the surface showed defects again. There wasn't even a need for a lighted magnifier. The soft paint helped to amplify the issue, and it was clearly visible.



Yes, we are talking about a very high level of surface preparation, which is pretty uncommon in the OEM/bodyshop/carwash scene. Now please suggest how the testing can be even more focused, or result oriented.



The buffing film gives proper lubrication to the powder package; the agglomerates and primer crystals. They do their work, break down, reach their extremely fine "final" state, grit size. The evenly distributed lube oils (usually higher viscosity) fill the microscopic imprefections and defects of the paint as intended, providing a nice lube film for the abrasives. When the powder finishes, you have to remove the residue carefully and voila, the surface is perfect. Is it? No. It just looks perfect. A towel won't remove the oils from the micropits and -valleys, because the strands are just too big to do that. But a gentle Acrysol/IPA wipedown will lift the oils hiding in the imperfections, showing the true state of the surface. And you have to look closer, much closer than OEM or whatever.



Soft paints therefore are a nice challenge. On hard paints, the lube oil/powder package may work more harmoniously, because the size, shape and hardness of the particle fits that window better. So Jeff, it is unwise to scream "itwon'tfill", because technically EVERYTHING fills what leaves something on the surface. We can mention waxes, sealants or polishes - if it leaves something behind, even 1-2 microns of protection, oils, buildup, etc., it fills. Using a thickener such as bentonite clay will increase the viscosity and improve the product consistency as well as reducing the phase separation - but it can fill to an extent too. OEM polishes and compounds are usualy very thick - because thickness improves the stability/storage characteristics. Such emulsions are made extra thick to reduce the mobility of the phases, so they won't oil out of the emulsion. Wonder if they fill?

The temporary filling effect of the majority of polishes is an observable fact. However it is easy to discover the true state of the surface by doing a proper wipedown, so it is not a big issue. I think a simple adjustment of your Customer Service would be sufficient, saying "The lubricating additives in our polishes may temporarily level out the microscopic imperfections after polishing. It is therefore recommended to perform a prep-solvent wipedown to reveal the true state of the finish. If necessary, repeat the process."

 

[SuperBee364]

Bence, we can only hope that your skill level improves to match the quality of the product.

 

[zaxjax]

Wow, that was 5 pages of good reading!



I like using Menzerna products but may look elsewhere after reading some of Jeff's posts. Sorry Jeff.

 

[Rickrack]

Very well said Bence!



Ryan and I have done extensive testing with a wide range of products and have discovered that just about every polish / compound out there has some sort of filling abilities due to the lubricating additives.



As you said below, it's really not a big deal as long as you know to follow every polishing session with an alcohol or prep-solvent wipedown to reveal the true state of the finish. Slight filling is not a huge deal as long as you are aware of it, so I don't understand why someone would deny that it happens?

The temporary filling effect of the majority of polishes is an observable fact. However it is easy to discover the true state of the surface by doing a proper wipedown, so it is not a big issue. I think a simple adjustment of your Customer Service would be sufficient, saying "The lubricating additives in our polishes may temporarily level out the microscopic imperfections after polishing. It is therefore recommended to perform a prep-solvent wipedown to reveal the true state of the finish. If necessary, repeat the process."