new & improved PO106ff

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lecchilo said:
While I haven't experienced any long term marring coming back (I really don't think the testing for this has been consistent because you never know, even with great washing techniques you MIGHT be doing something to the finish... I guess the only way to find out is to do it on some garage queen which won't get any sort of dirt on it ...
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Let me post my experience. This is just for info purposes and is *NOT* a slam at anybody or anything. I don't have a dog is this fight as I have never used 106FF and don't plan to, and I certainly don't care if others use it or not. OK, disclaimer over...



My Denali XL was detailed by a *VERY* good pro (and a member here). Final steps were 106FF by rotary folowed by 106FF by PC. Waxed with Collinite. Looked super, no problems. It then sat in the corner of my shop for months while I drove my beater-Blazer instead. No wash, no use, nothing; it just sat except for a few brief errands and whenever I moved it around/outside. When it was outside it continued to look super...no holograms, that's for sure. The Collinite was still 100%, everything looked exactly like it did when I first parked it save for a light layer of dust.



*EXCEPT* that a few months later I sold the Blazer, and when I pulled the Denali XL out into the sun to start using it.....it had holograms that absolutely were not visible previously.



I washed it (no, I didn't induce any marring ;) ) and the Collinite was still beading just like new. I was surprised that the holograms appeared even though the LSP was still OK. Over the next few weeks even more holograms started to appear, until it finally because obvious that I had to redo the vehicle. Based on the difficulty I had in doing said correction, some of the previously hidden holograms seemed to be quite severe, the sort of thing I wouldn't expect to be so well hidden for so long no matter what.



Based on the above, I can't help but think that the 106FF does a fair amount of concealing, even when used by a good detailer. Would a solvent wipe-down have helped (AFAIK he didn't do that), I dunno :nixweiss But this was a whole lot of concealing that lasted for months.
 
Dave1 said:
Todd, can you tell me what product specifically is in 106FF that fills......?



Thanks......:up
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No I cannot. But I can tell you the rep in England mentioned that the 106 series uses a waxy lubricant and that each product uses an oil in water emulsion (most likely mineral oil, from my understanding). I can tell you that mineral oil will mask defects by itself.



Furthermore I can tell you enough (more then 50 people I believe) have made comments regarding Menzerna filling, and that should be enough, esp. when the names of the detailers who have stated this are amongst the highest in regard and guys I look up too.



I think its more important to acknowledge the problem exists but I doubt that will happen.
 
Accumulator said:
Let me post my experience. This is just for info purposes and is *NOT* a slam at anybody or anything. I don't have a dog is this fight as I have never used 106FF and don't plan to, and I certainly don't care if others use it or not. OK, disclaimer over...



My Denali XL was detailed by a *VERY* good pro (and a member here). Final steps were 106FF by rotary folowed by 106FF by PC. Waxed with Collinite. Looked super, no problems. It then sat in the corner of my shop for months while I drove my beater-Blazer instead. No wash, no use, nothing; it just sat except for a few brief errands and whenever I moved it around/outside. When it was outside it continued to look super...no holograms, that's for sure. The Collinite was still 100%, everything looked exactly like it did when I first parked it save for a light layer of dust.



*EXCEPT* that a few months later I sold the Blazer, and when I pulled the Denali XL out into the sun to start using it.....it had holograms that absolutely were not visible previously.

I washed it (no, I didn't induce any marring ;) ) and the Collinite was still beading just like new. I was surprised that the holograms appeared even though the LSP was still OK. Over the next few weeks even more holograms started to appear, until it finally because obvious that I had to redo the vehicle. Based on the difficulty I had in doing said correction, some of the previously hidden holograms seemed to be quite severe, the sort of thing I wouldn't expect to be so well hidden for so long no matter what.

Based on the above, I can't help but think that the 106FF does a fair amount of concealing, even when used by a good detailer. Would a solvent wipe-down have helped (AFAIK he didn't do that), I dunno :nixweiss But this was a whole lot of concealing that lasted for months.
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To me this is the NAIL in the COFFIN as far as this debate goes...



Jeff thinks your a liar and the detailer you used (the person you used is VERY high quality and posts amazing cars on here all the time, with outstanding results) isn't good enough for his products, BTW.



I should also add that almost all dark colored on the Mercedes lots have light hologramming. When my mother bought her Benz it looked really nice. With in a couple of months it was hologram city.. When I asked the dealership what they polished it with they where empahetic in the fact that they did not polish the car.



They even brought over there lead tech from the body shop (this guy is good actually) and he agreed they where buffer swirls in the paint that they where caused by high speed machines that seemed in areas to spin in circles (such as dynabrade air sanders). When we looked around the lot they noticed a lot of the cars (not even close to all I must add) that had been on the lot for a while had this wierd hologramming. The body shop is the only department that polishes paint for the dealership and once again he was certain that they did not polish any of the cars.
 
TH0001 said:
No I cannot. But I can tell you the rep in England mentioned that the 106 series uses a waxy lubricant and that each product uses an oil in water emulsion (most likely mineral oil, from my understanding). I can tell you that mineral oil will mask defects by itself.



Furthermore I can tell you enough (more then 50 people I believe) have made comments regarding Menzerna filling, and that should be enough, esp. when the names of the detailers who have stated this are amongst the highest in regard and guys I look up too.



I think its more important to acknowledge the problem exists but I doubt that will happen.
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Well Todd, I hear ya but, in a court of law.....you need a body.



Find out what's in Menzerna 106 that fills and you win your case.....:bigups



The manufacturer may not tell you for obvious reasons. IF lubricants "fill", test the lubricants. If it's something else, test that......



I'm used to seeing you break down your details to the bone with information and I always look forward to learning something from your efforts. Many here have seen the effects you first mentioned and it's probably a given that other companies have their secret formulas that are not open to the public to copy.....



My personal take:

Knowing that a wipe down may be necessary depending on the LSP, I personally don't get angry about a product that has excellent results in paint correction........



Have a good July 4th weekend.......:up
 
Dave1 said:
Well Todd, I hear ya but, in a court of law.....you need a body.



Find out what's in Menzerna 106 that fills and you win your case.....:bigups



The manufacturer may not tell you for obvious reasons. IF lubricants "fill", test the lubricants. If it's something else, test that......



I'm used to seeing you break down your details to the bone with information and I always look forward to learning something from your efforts. Many here have seen the effects you first mentioned and it's probably a given that other companies have their secret formulas that are not open to the public to copy.....



My personal take:

Knowing that a wipe down may be necessary depending on the LSP, I personally don't get angry about a product that has excellent results in paint correction........



Have a good July 4th weekend.......:up
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Dave, *no one* was getting angry about a product that has excellent results in paint correction. *Everyone* was getting angry about Menzerna USA's response when they were made aware of the fact that 106 and 85rd fills. Menz took a situation that called for an appropriate reaction ("Gee guys, you're right, it does unintentionally fill, and here's what you can do to fix it.") and turned it into a perfect example of how a company should *not* handle their customers. That's when the anger started.
 
SuperBee364 said:
Dave, *no one* was getting angry about a product that has excellent results in paint correction. *Everyone* was getting angry about Menzerna USA's response when they were made aware of the fact that 106 and 85rd fills. Menz took a situation that called for an appropriate reaction ("Gee guys, you're right, it does unintentionally fill, and here's what you can do to fix it.") and turned it into a perfect example of how a company should *not* handle their customers. That's when the anger started.
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Ok, SuperBee......:up



Now you get Menzerna in Europe to admit that 106 fills and you win......



It's that simple.....



If the "USA" version of the story is different than the OEM German version I'd be shocked.......Mr. Silver may, just may be posting something from the parent company as far as we know here at this point....



Could it have been handled better.....?



Absolutely....:up



Great customer service is always important for successful companies. If and when the mother company alters Mr. Silvers comments, they remain the same virtually.



Perhaps some of our German friends here can chime in with some inside knowledge that will give us all some additional understanding......
 
Dave1 said:
Well Todd, I hear ya but, in a court of law.....you need a body.



Find out what's in Menzerna 106 that fills and you win your case.....:bigups



The manufacturer may not tell you for obvious reasons. IF lubricants "fill", test the lubricants. If it's something else, test that......



I'm used to seeing you break down your details to the bone with information and I always look forward to learning something from your efforts. Many here have seen the effects you first mentioned and it's probably a given that other companies have their secret formulas that are not open to the public to copy.....



My personal take:

Knowing that a wipe down may be necessary depending on the LSP, I personally don't get angry about a product that has excellent results in paint correction........



Have a good July 4th weekend.......:up
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Hi Dave, I'm not sure I understand your post or the direction of it.



My body is that I can polish certain paints, make them appear perfect after polishing, then make the defects return. I, as well as MANY others have posted this and it isn't a myth. Once presented I would except the manufacturer (or in this case the importer) to give me the reason why.



Are you saying that the results that a lot of us have had are not happening because I cannot tell you why they happened? (This is what I got from your post but I am not sure if this was the message you meant).



Regarding your personal take, I agree that it is your personal take. From my end, I pubically stated (first to my knowledge) that 106ff CAN mask defects and was called a liar and bashed by the importer of the product. Neither of us are wrong, but I did not and do not enjoy being called a liar (and by reference to this thread, incompetent) by a company when they are wrong.
 
Dave1 said:
Ok, SuperBee......:up



Now you get Menzerna in Europe to admit that 106 fills and you win......



It's that simple.....
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I'm not sure what prize he would win because I still don't see what this has to do with the fact that many people have had these results.



If the "USA" version of the story is different than the OEM German version I'd be shocked.......Mr. Silver may, just may be posting something from the parent company as far as we know here at this point....
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I would be shocked if that is not what happened? I wonder if the mother ship also requested that he call me a liar, claim I invent conversations, and question the skill level of some of the best detailers on this side of the pond.



Even if they did, this hardly gives anybody a free pass so to speak. You should know the products you sell inside and out and be able to provide your information about those. I know that if I where to sell a product I would research everything about it and test it and test it, etc. Perhaps Menzerna would be better off using a distributor that was more dedicated to detailing and had a better background as such.



So if Menzerna (Germany) denies it fills, that gives aminesty to those who sell the products as well?



Perhaps some of our German friends here can chime in with some inside knowledge that will give us all some additional understanding......
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Additonal understanding of what? The fact that many of the top detailers on this site have had filling issues with 106ff and the US distributor denies this? Is there more to understand?
 
I am not even in the same ballpark as the guys in this thread, but I experienced filling from 106ff this past weekend while polishing a 2002 NBP Honda Accord. I was using SIP with an orange LC pad, then 106FF with white pad....Looked great. I then did a prep-all wipe, and there were swirls in plain sight.



Just my dos pesos.
 
TH0001 said:
Are you saying that the results that a lot of us have had are not happening because I cannot tell you why they happened? (This is what I got from your post but I am not sure if this was the message you meant).
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No, not at all.....



I agreed with you in another thread that a wipe down is necessary after using Menzerna to check the surface for swirl removal.
 
Holden_C04 said:
Autogeek ought to be careful advertising such claims. I think this could be regarded as false advertising.
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Please, I don't think so. How in the world do you disprove their statement? Maybe you ought to be careful what you accuse site sponsors of doing.
 
TH0001 said:
1.) So if Menzerna (Germany) denies it fills, that gives aminesty to those who sell the products as well?





2.) Additonal understanding of what?
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1.) Basically yes.....If the mother company backs up what their distributer said, what other conclusion can you come to......?

The guy may be a jerk and I completely understand your point here Todd, don't get me wrong......



2.) What product specifically is filling.....
 
GatorJ said:
Please, I don't think so. How in the world do you disprove their statement? Maybe you ought to be careful what you accuse site sponsors of doing.
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106FA is not a new product. If you do some searching for yourself, you will find it has been around for a very long time so it can't be a "new and improved" 106FF. I don't know the whole story and Menzerna doesn't tell the whole story either. I simply recognize and question when a retailer starts up a whole new marketing campaign based on previously unreported information. It may be true, and it may not be. But I am certainly skeptical.
 
Ah, guys, there is one thing which I haven't done yet, but definitely will: to accelerate the aging process of the surface, I'll put my IR heater against the test panel. This high heat condition will help the evaporation of the possible waxy lubes/oils, so we'll see results faster.



I just need another NBP Honda...
 
Dave1 said:
1.) Basically yes.....If the mother company backs up what their distributer said, what other conclusion can you come to......?

The guy may be a jerk and I completely understand your point here Todd, don't get me wrong......
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So if a little kid grows up to be a murder and his mother was a murder, do we just shrug our shoulders?



The point is that anybody selling a product accepts a degree of responsiblity for the product they sell, I am not too quick to pass the buck. IMO it would make both of them wrong vs. one of them correct. At least that is my conculsion. I think you are playing devil's advocate here but the thing is I don't see the other side.



Perhaps Jeff, as I have seen him viewing this thread at least 3 times today, could comment as to whether Menzerna (Germany) told him to call me a liar and indirectly insult my skill level as well?
 
Holden_C04 said:
106FA is not a new product. If you do some searching for yourself, you will find it has been around for a very long time so it can't be a "new and improved" 106FF. I don't know the whole story and Menzerna doesn't tell the whole story either. I simply recognize and question when a retailer starts up a whole new marketing campaign based on previously unreported information. It may be true, and it may not be. But I am certainly skeptical.
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The 106 FA has been around for a while now, this is correct. We decided to start carrying this product as many customers were asking for it. Theres alot of versions of the 106 polishes that are sold to different factories the ones we here the most about are the po85rd,106ff and 106fa. The 106Fa is the newest version of the 106 nano polishes.
 
TH0001 said:
1.) So if a little kid grows up to be a murder and his mother was a murder, do we just shrug our shoulders?



2.) Perhaps Jeff, as I have seen him viewing this thread at least 3 times today, could comment as to whether Menzerna (Germany) told him to call me a liar and indirectly insult my skill level as well?
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1.) :grinno:........I wasn't aware of the depth of your distain......



A long time ago I learned to "wave at the train"......If Menzerna won't come out and say it, so be it.......Life is too short to dwell on negaives that are not in your control.

Mr. Silver may owe you an apology but, don't sweat it if he doesn't......



2.) Perhaps......But, don't hold your breath. Once lines are drawn in the sand they seldom get moved. Knowing your right doesn't always require an agreement if you know what I mean........:up
 
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