new & improved PO106ff

[SuperBee364]

Who manufactures FMJ then?

That was never answered. All Silverman would say, is that if it has a Menzerna label on it, it's "a Menzerna product". Note the careful wording. That was in direct response to the question "are FMJ and FTG manufactured by Menzerna?"



Menzerna USA isn't doing itself any favors by having Silverman in his position. He's created more bad blood (*especially* over the whole 106 and 85rd filling thing) and confused product names/numbers even worse than they were in the first place. Notice he doesn't post around here or the other popular detailing boards anymore. Wonder why.

 

[jsilver6]

That was never answered. All Silverman would say, is that if it has a Menzerna label on it, it's "a Menzerna product". Note the careful wording. That was in direct response to the question "are FMJ and FTG manufactured by Menzerna?"



Menzerna USA isn't doing itself any favors by having Silverman in his position. He's created more bad blood (*especially* over the whole 106 and 85rd filling thing) and confused product names/numbers even worse than they were in the first place. Notice he doesn't post around here or the other popular detailing boards anymore. Wonder why.

SuperBee364, thanks for the kind words. I tend to spend time running a business and this leave me little opportunity (or interest) to correct misconceptions, errors, and falsehoods.



Case in point: My name is Jeff Silver, not Silverman.

If you would like information from the factory source, just send an email to [email protected] and i will give you a reply. This is preferred to what many do on various forums, namely post thoughts as facts without any substantiation.



We manufacture and sell buffing compounds and polish to professionals and industrial customers. We don't intentionally create bad blood, however we cannot prevent some people from getting themselves confused. If someone insists that a product in some way performs differently than designed and they wish to maintain that belief, then so be it. I can only hope that their skill level improves to match the quality of the product.



If you would like to present evidence to the contrary, and not just repeat the self-serving comments from others with an ax to grind, I would be glad to pass it along to our lab.



If you are also having difficulty with understanding product number, please contact your distributor or send me an email. In the future, we will be using product names instead of numbers, so this should help you out. Again, any questions you still have with figuring out product types can be answered by our knowledgeable distributors.

 

[SuperBee364]

Whoops, sorry I got the name wrong. My apologies. And I do stand by my statements about how poorly the whole polish filling thing was handled, as well as product names and numbers. I'm not trying to start a flame war, as that was already well done last year about all of these issues.



Note that I have been nothing but a Menzerna supporter and avid user. I'm just very disappointed with how several things have been handled by your office. I am one of the many people who observed/observe on a daily basis how PO85RD and PO106FF *do* fill and mask defects. Whether it was intentional on Menzerna's part is moot. The fact is that it *does* occur, and your office's response was completely unprofessional and poorly handled. I'm not asking for a product formulation change; I *love* all of my Menz polishes, but it would be nice for Menz to say something like, "Yup, they do unintentionally mask defects, and here's what you can do to fix it..." instead of the name calling and denial that actually occured. Several of the people that were pretty much called liars by Menzerna are *very* well respected detailing professionals. *That* is the bad blood to which I refered.

 

[99blackSE]

They don't though ... If your talking about FMJ, it's not a real Menz product, CMA just put the Menzerna name on it.

My mistake and apologies then, but if an initial consumer didn't know this I'd imagine they would pull a similar assumption

 

[Old Pirate]

This is getting interesting here, Thanks Rydawg on your comment!:up

 

[jsilver6]

Whoops, sorry I got the name wrong. My apologies. And I do stand by my statements about how poorly the whole polish filling thing was handled, as well as product names and numbers. I'm not trying to start a flame war, as that was already well done last year about all of these issues.



Note that I have been nothing but a Menzerna supporter and avid user. I'm just very disappointed with how several things have been handled by your office. I am one of the many people who observed/observe on a daily basis how PO85RD and PO106FF *do* fill and mask defects. Whether it was intentional on Menzerna's part is moot. The fact is that it *does* occur, and your office's response was completely unprofessional and poorly handled. I'm not asking for a product formulation change; I *love* all of my Menz polishes, but it would be nice for Menz to say something like, "Yup, they do unintentionally mask defects, and here's what you can do to fix it..." instead of the name calling and denial that actually occured. Several of the people that were pretty much called liars by Menzerna are *very* well respected detailing professionals. *That* is the bad blood to which I refered.

For the record, nobody was called a liar. Menzerna will not make a statement that is false, even if suggested by a loyal customer.

 

[P1et]

I believe that Phil from Detailers Domain has been carrying this for a while, unless I am missing something?

 

[SuperBee364]

For the record, nobody was called a liar. Menzerna will not make a statement that is false, even if suggested by a loyal customer.

I'm not asking you to make a false statement, merely to acknowledge the obvious fact that the products do *unintentionally* mask defects, and the solution to it. It's a well-known fact. Menzerna's failure to recognize it doesn't help it's credibility.

 

[imported_Ivan Rajic]

Super I can see Silver's point in not releasing that statement because not every Menzerna user is knocking on their door saying the same thing. I'm not "taking a side" here, just pointing out why it is what it is.



As for FMJ, I can see everyone's disappointment because even with your last statement Silver, you didn't address this whatsoever...

We manufacture and sell buffing compounds and polish to professionals and industrial customers.

Why not simply state here what it is and who makes it?

 

[SuperBee364]

Before this goes out of control...



I apologize for bringing this dead horse up again to be beaten. I've held my tongue on this subject up until now, and I should have just kept holding it.



If you honestly believe that your office's response to this subject is truly in the best interest of Menzerna and it's customers, there is little I can do or say to change your mind. My only intention was to show you how some of your customers have viewed your response to this and other issues.



Many people have shown photographic proof of 85RD and 106FF filling/hiding defects. It's pretty hard to see them and wonder why Menzerna won't acknowledge the problem. I see this very thing happen *every time* I use both of these products. It's pretty frustrating (from a customer standpoint) to see this, and yet have Menzerna refuse to even acknowledge it happens.



Regardless, your response is, in your opinion, what is best for Menzerna and it's customers. I've said my peace, and won't say anything further.

 

[imported_grease]

For the record, nobody was called a liar. Menzerna will not make a statement that is false, even if suggested by a loyal customer.

Not specifically, no. But the impression from certain menz reps was given that the experienced detailers didnt know what they were doing at all, instead of observing the results and discussing solutions. 106ff hides and does a good job of it. And yet you keep saying its user error, instead of helping.



Its also not a simple solution to call distributors, when you will get 3 different answers from 3 different distributors. Im an avid Menz user and will continue to be, but you certainly do not do the brand any justice. Im not trying to start a flame war either, but Ive never had as much problems dealing with a brand as I have with Menz US.

 

[Bert]

For the record, nobody was called a liar. Menzerna will not make a statement that is false, even if suggested by a loyal customer.

Why do I have a feeling Todd (TH0001) will be commenting on this thread soon??

 

[jsilver6]

Super I can see Silver's point in not releasing that statement because not every Menzerna user is knocking on their door saying the same thing. I'm not "taking a side" here, just pointing out why it is what it is.



As for FMJ, I can see everyone's disappointment because even with your last statement Silver, you didn't address this whatsoever...







Why not simply state here what it is and who makes it?

Ivan, a forum could be a good place to freely exchange information and experiences amongst detailers. However no one is under any obligation to divulge all proprietary information. This is especially true for manufacturers that must maintain confidentiality of formula and marketing decisions. To do otherwise would be irresponsible and foolish.

 

[Bert]

If someone insists that a product in some way performs differently than designed and they wish to maintain that belief, then so be it. I can only hope that their skill level improves to match the quality of the product.

If the filling claims were only being made by a small handful of posters, I too would probably not worry too much about them. However, this is not a small handful of posters, it is a fair number on just about every detailing board I read (9 at my last count) which would make me think it would be in Menzerna's interest to figure out what these detailers are doing (if it is user error as you claim) and offer solutions to the issue through these numerous message boards.



I would be scared to guess how many people have started using SIP and Nano Polish simply due to the recommendations of Todd (TH0001) due to the reputation he has on this and other boards. A rep from Menzerna stating that his skill level is not up to par probably does not help in ensuring such goodwill (and free advertising) will continue on this board on others.



I would argue the same goodwill is achieved by Optimum Polymer Technologies due to Scott's (Scottwax) endorsement of Optimum polishes, No Rinse Wash and Shine, and other products due to his reputation on this board. If Scott were to mention in a thread that he was having difficulty with an Optimum product, I feel pretty safe that Dr. Ghodoussi would not just dismiss this as incompetence. If anything, he (or someone else at Optimum) would be researching why the difficulty is coming up and how to resolve the issue people are having and communicate such resolutions.

 

[SuperBee364]

If the filling claims were only being made by a small handful of posters, I too would probably not worry too about them. However, this is not a small handful of posters, it is a fair number on just about every detailing board I read (9 at my last count) which would make me think it would be in Menzerna's interest to figure out what these detailers are doing (if it is user error as you claim) and offer solutions to the issue through these numerous message boards.



I would be scared to guess how many people have started using SIP and Nano Polish simply due to the recommendations of Todd (TH0001) due to the reputation he has on this and other boards. A rep from Menzerna stating that his skill level is not up to par probably does not help in ensuring such goodwill (and free advertising) will continue on this board on others.



I would argue the same goodwill is achieved by Optimum Polymer Technologies due to Scott's (Scottwax) endorsement of Optimum polishes, No Rinse Wash and Shine, and other products due to his reputation on this board. If Scott were to mention in a thread that he was having difficulty with an Optimum product, I feel pretty safe that Dr. Ghodoussi would not just dismiss this as incompetence. If anything, he (or someone else at Optimum) would be researching why the difficulty is coming up and how to resolve the issue people are having and communicate such resolutions.

Very well written post, bert31.

 

[Bert]

Very well written post, bert31.

Thanks. I hope Jeff Silver does not take my post as a jab at him, because it was not meant to be. I have never met nor conversed with Jeff and I certainly don't know enough about him to have a positive or negative view about him like many on this board. Saying that, I will give Jeff the benefit of the doubt that he is a good guy to deal with (despite how some on here feel) and simply made a comment or two that were taken the wrong way by members here. I give Jeff (and anyone else for that matter) the benefit of the doubt because I hope others will do the same for me when I do something which causes people to get pissy.



I understand that Jeff's job does not allow him the time to spend all day searching all of the numerous detailing boards dismissing every little misconception made about Menzerna products. However, the filling issue has been a fairly prominent topic on numerous boards for a while now and probably should be addressed by someone Menzerna if so many people are experiencing it. Being defensive about it and saying people experiencing filling don't have the skills to use the product is probably not the best way to handle the situation from a customer service stand point.

 

[SuperBee364]

Quote:

Originally Posted by jsilver6

If someone insists that a product in some way performs differently than designed and they wish to maintain that belief, then so be it. I can only hope that their skill level improves to match the quality of the product.



OK, I lied. I have to say something about this...



In one sentence, Mr. Silver manages to be arrogant, condescending, and call into question the competence of one of *the most* competent and well respected people in the professional detailinng community. Bravo.



If Todd's skill level needs to improve to "match the quality of the product", then I *know* that I am far too incompetent to use such a superior product. I guess I better find something that is more of a match for my skill level.

 

[jsilver6]

Quote:

Originally Posted by jsilver6

If someone insists that a product in some way performs differently than designed and they wish to maintain that belief, then so be it. I can only hope that their skill level improves to match the quality of the product.



OK, I lied. I have to say something about this...



In one sentence, Mr. Silver manages to be arrogant, condescending, and call into question the competence of one of *the most* competent and well respected people in the professional detailinng community. Bravo.



If Todd's skill level needs to improve to "match the quality of the product", then I *know* that I am far too incompetent to use such a superior product. I guess I better find something that is more of a match for my skill level.

Mr. SuerBee364,



In a thread discussing the PO106 polish line, you felt it necessary to once again bring up a trait you claim to have seen called filling. No one can challenge your perception, and certainly I never did. I did state a fact that you refuse to accept, in that there is nothing in the contents that will cause filling.



The information I am providing to you is based on actual product knowledge and independent testing by laboratories and by the many industries that are successfully using our product. These include the factories that are producing the parts and assembled automobiles that you ultimately detail.



I do find your name calling to be immature and uncalled for and not in the spirit of honest discussion or dissent.



My experience in the polishing industry has taught me that in the vast majority of cases, regardless of the product being used and with all of the variables associated with the polishing operation, it is rarely the product that is the cause of a problem. This is especially the case with a mature product that has been on the market for years producing superior result. We assist our customers with their wide variety of polishing issues every day, and it is very gratifying to hear that they ultimately were able to resolve their issue.



As for your indignant outrage that I would call into question the competence of an individual that you have profound reverence for, someone that was not part of this discussion, nor mentioned in any way, I can't help you here. No offense was intended and none should be taken.



If you really are interested in discussing polishing issues, I invite your to do what many do every day and call my office. I don't believe you ever have. Public foot stomping is not very becoming for a professional.

 

[imported_Dave11]

The lubricating vehicle to support the components necessary to remove clear coat is probably the crux of the issue.......



Calling it a couplant, lubrication or "filler" may end up being moot.....



Meguairs has "trade secrets" and offer many, many products for their customers......



I don't sweat it.......



106 and 85RD are good products basically and I don't see what the big fuss is all about in the end..........

 

[Bunky]

I know the words "no fillers" is clearly stated but I think the words seem carefully chosen.



I had read a post on another forum that suggested this effect could be caused by solvents in the polish that make the paint swell giving it a false finished appearance.



What the manufacturer should do in a situation like this is investigate this with experienced users to understand and then educate on how to prevent it rather than just state they are not using it correctly. This will lead to better customer satisfaction.