Levels of 'Professional' detailing

T

todd@bsaw

New member
To keep threads on track, this is a discussion from a thread in the General Detailing forum:



ptaylor_9849 said:
While we're on the topic I've got to ask you pro's a question. How on earth are you doing a full detail in 6 or even 8 hours? Please tell me that you are not doing full correction in this time frame. I've been known to spend 4 hours on just a hood. How are you guys doing it?
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This has often been a conflict in the Pro forum, but I'll sum up my thoughts.

In the business, there are three levels of work; express detailing, concourse detailing, and somewhere in between. Most pros on this forum fall around the between to concourse detailing.



Yes, the 'autopian' form of detailing is perfection all the way. But from a strict business stand point, most detailers are not able to make a living doing this work. There just is not the market for all pros to charge $600+ for a full 8 - 12 hour detail with full paint correction and q-tip treatment. Given the region and local market, the client is happy with 90% or even 60% correction and will pay what they feel is a fair price for that service.



I have worked in a couple different detail shops in the WI/MN area and finding your niche as a detailer is something that takes years of presence. Sure, I (and all the other pros) can do equal if not better work than others on this forum, if we were given the same pay and time frame. But when you learn what your market and selected client is expecting, you also learn where to spend your time.



In my area, a customer is expecting their 10 year old Suburban to look brand new for $100. If I spend 2 hours on an interior and 4 hours on an exterior, they are likely to be unhappy. If I spend 4 hours on an interior and 20 minutes on the exterior, they will be amazed. People in the area just are not concerned about their paint.



Sure, I'm not happy because I believe most of my clients could use a good 10 hour detail with full paint correction. I have even done some 50/50 samples on a hood/trunk for them and my typical response is "wow, that looks good. but i don't need that."



This is an area of concern for me because I am much happier (and more talented) working on paint correction, not scraping old apple sauce from the floor of a minivan or vacuuming up french fries from between the drivers seat.



Discuss.
 
Well, selling detailing services is just that - selling. Any good sales person listens to the needs of the customer, and then steers them to the product that best suits their needs (and also tries to upsale).



What I am getting at is let's say you have a 6 hour window for a mini van detail for a soccer mom. Before starting the detail, you should walk the vehicle with the primary driver, and discuss what you can do, and ask what areas are thorns in their side that they would like to see fixed. If she primarily mentions scratches on the sides of the vehicle from bikes, that's where you should focus the majority of your efforts. If she mentions stained carpets and nasty leather seats as being her biggest concern, then maybe you should spend extra time to get the interior 95% corrected, and settle for a 60-70% correction on the exterior.



Just becuase you are more talented at paint correction doesn't mean that all of your customers can appreciate that talent. When you are a professional detailer, you have to do what the customer wants, not what makes you feel warm and fuzzy inside.
 
I'm a bad candidate to answer this. I provide only one service. I wouldn't work on a 10 year old Suburban, unless the owner wanted to pay me what I needed to make it worth my time. But no matter how many cars I detail, or not, I will always eat. I make less than 5% of my annual income from detailing. Some of the Autopian practices are nice for your personal car, when time doesn't equal money. But if you try to turn a profit following these over-kill practices will drive you to the poor house.



ptaylor_9849: 4 hours on a hood? I am a 36 year old guy and I can go around a black Mercedes wagon in 4 hours on a 2 step correction. I do get a swirl free finish with products that do not have fillers. Pick up a rotary and learn to make it an extension of your arm and mind.
 
most custamers are happy with if you use an aio glaze on the paint and clean the interior. there not going up to the paint with a 3m sun light and lookng for micro swirls. in my area anyway.
 
todd@bsaw said:
To keep threads on track, this is a discussion from a thread in the General Detailing forum:







This has often been a conflict in the Pro forum, but I'll sum up my thoughts.

In the business, there are three levels of work; express detailing, concourse detailing, and somewhere in between. Most pros on this forum fall around the between to concourse detailing.



Yes, the 'autopian' form of detailing is perfection all the way. But from a strict business stand point, most detailers are not able to make a living doing this work. There just is not the market for all pros to charge $600+ for a full 8 - 12 hour detail with full paint correction and q-tip treatment. Given the region and local market, the client is happy with 90% or even 60% correction and will pay what they feel is a fair price for that service.



I have worked in a couple different detail shops in the WI/MN area and finding your niche as a detailer is something that takes years of presence. Sure, I (and all the other pros) can do equal if not better work than others on this forum, if we were given the same pay and time frame. But when you learn what your market and selected client is expecting, you also learn where to spend your time.



In my area, a customer is expecting their 10 year old Suburban to look brand new for $100. If I spend 2 hours on an interior and 4 hours on an exterior, they are likely to be unhappy. If I spend 4 hours on an interior and 20 minutes on the exterior, they will be amazed. People in the area just are not concerned about their paint.



Sure, I'm not happy because I believe most of my clients could use a good 10 hour detail with full paint correction. I have even done some 50/50 samples on a hood/trunk for them and my typical response is "wow, that looks good. but i don't need that."



This is an area of concern for me because I am much happier (and more talented) working on paint correction, not scraping old apple sauce from the floor of a minivan or vacuuming up french fries from between the drivers seat.



Discuss.
Click to expand...





Ever thought of moving to Florida? Back in Maine, most folks were particular about their interiors but didn't care if there were swirls or not. Down here, paint perfection details outsell one-steps or wash and waxes 4 or 5 to 1 for me.
 
Become a business that serves your area.



If a $45 detail is going to get 500 customers per month in your area, develop a profit making $45 detail business model.

If you live in an area that will benefit form a $400 super detail, build a $400 super detail business model.



Use your heads!! IF you cant sell sand in the desert, go get some water and sell that!!



If you have to follow these maniac detailing processes with a sun light and digital micrometer and your region wont cover it, do it on your own car and serve your clients what they want. You have to pay your bills. PERIOD
 
I think area plays a huge part in what customers want as well. Above "themightytimmah" asked if you wanted to move to Florida. Maybe he'll disagree with my next comment...but in the larger cities, i.e. LA, Miami, NY, Chi-town...people are very stero typical because they need to be better than the next person. Thats why they will pay top dollar to look the best. Looks at the plastic surgery industry, people don't do it cause they NEED it, they do it to look better! To them it may give them more confidence or whatever. So if having the cleanest car makes them think they are better, they will do it!



Other areas of the country its not practical to get a $600 detail...when in most cases it equates to a mortgage payment or rent payment for those people, or something needed.



The normal person has no idea if we are pros or not...because they are not in the industry. Most will pick a detailer based on word of mouth, then advertising or marketing. I could be the best detailer in Ohio, but if I don't look the part, I will get very little business. Case in point: there a shop down the street from me...i drive by it everyday, have yet to see a car there for the 8 months they've been operating...so I went there, ask them some questions, product usage, what machines do they have(they didnt have any, did everything by hand), and packages...then asked for a business card and a broschure, they didn't have any. Would I come back to get my car detailed...probably not.

So would I consider them pros?... not at all. Do they call themselves pros?...maybe!



Do what works for you...and make sure you stand by your work if someone complains!
 
Interesting thread. What type of services you offer and what you charge is purely a personal decision. For those of us who do this for a living, it is imperative that we offer services and pricing that will keep us busy and allow for us to make a profit. I live in one of the wealthiest counties in the country (Loudoun). Except for a very small niche, the majority of people here are not interested in, nor are they willing to pay for a $400 and up detail. Most simply want good value for their money. I offer three packages to fit most people's needs and budget. All of my packages offer an excellent value, which is what people are looking for. People in NOVA are very busy, so the other thing they are looking for is convenience and great service. They do not want their car tied up for more than 8 hours and want you to make it easy for them to access your services. What I have also concentrated on is arranging regular service (bi-weekly) for as many of my customers as possible. This is a great advantage to both the customer and I. For the customer, their car stays clean and the paint does not get marred up from improper washing. This is especially true for brand new cars. For me, it gives me steady income, and because the cars stay clean, makes my job easier.
 
All detailers aren't equal, all markets aren't either.



I think one of the big issues is that success is judged by who has the nicest cars in the click and brag forum, and in reality that has very little to do with success.



There are vastly differing degrees of skill present here on the forum. Most guys can achieve a defect free finish one way or another, the difference between a pro and an amateur is how long it takes and how they get there.



Amateurs can pound away with a DA long enough to get rid of defects, they manage to use what polishes are at their disposal or what they bought based on the raves of others on the forum; but their simple use doesn't equate to understanding. What makes Megs #83 different than Menzerna 106ff? They both have similar cut, similar workability, but their chemical composition and structure make them work very differently in differing conditions and with different paint and clear types. Pros have to know these things, amateurs don't.



Not everyone has a real chance to test their true abilities. There simply aren't enough Ferrari's and Hot Rods and councours cars out there for all of us. So some of us have to settle for perfection on lesser stages, but that absolute perfection is no greater tarnished on a Toyota than a Lamborghini. Perfect is perfect, and only a few of us can truly attain it, no matter what the monetary worth of it may be.



So obviously pros and amateurs are different, but they are also the same. Although we do it for money and they don't, we both still push ourselves to attain that degree of perfection from imperfect objects simply for the passion and the challenge of it.
 
All detailers aren't equal, all markets aren't either.



I think one of the big issues is that success is judged by who has the nicest cars in the click and brag forum, and in reality that has very little to do with success.



There are vastly differing degrees of skill present here on the forum. Most guys can achieve a defect free finish one way or another, the difference between a pro and an amateur is how long it takes and how they get there.



Amateurs can pound away with a DA long enough to get rid of defects, they manage to use what polishes are at their disposal or what they bought based on the raves of others on the forum; but their simple use doesn't equate to understanding. What makes Megs #83 different than Menzerna 106ff? They both have similar cut, similar workability, but their chemical composition and structure make them work very differently in differing conditions and with different paint and clear types. Pros have to know these things, amateurs don't.



Not everyone has a real chance to test their true abilities. There simply aren't enough Ferrari's and Hot Rods and councours cars out there for all of us. So some of us have to settle for perfection on lesser stages, but that absolute perfection is no greater tarnished on a Toyota than a Lamborghini. Perfect is perfect, and only a few of us can truly attain it, no matter what the monetary worth of it may be.



So obviously pros and amateurs are different, but they are also the same. Although we do it for money and they don't, we both still push ourselves to attain that degree of perfection from imperfect objects simply for the passion and the challenge of it.
 
jsatek said:
Become a business that serves your area.



If a $45 detail is going to get 500 customers per month in your area, develop a profit making $45 detail business model.

If you live in an area that will benefit form a $400 super detail, build a $400 super detail business model.
Click to expand...

I agree with this 100%

So here is another question just to throw out there...



Is every detail business professional? Is every pro detailer a business?



This is another distinction I've seen on the forums. You can operate a highly successful detail business, using jsatek's above example, selling $45 details and being busy 6 days a week.



There lies the difference between the technician, manager, and entrepreneur.

Name the book for 100 bonus points!
 
todd@bsaw said:
I agree with this 100%

So here is another question just to throw out there...



Is every detail business professional? Is every pro detailer a business?



This is another distinction I've seen on the forums. You can operate a highly successful detail business, using jsatek's above example, selling $45 details and being busy 6 days a week.



There lies the difference between the technician, manager, and entrepreneur.

Name the book for 100 bonus points!
Click to expand...

No, every detail business is not professional. The second question depends on what definition of 'business' you are referring to. I would think to be considered a 'professional' you conduct your self in a 'professional' manner which means you have a business license and insurance, and operate to make a profit. In that case, you would be a business. Like I said, it all depends on what definition of business you are referring to.
 
jsatek, I use a rotary not a D/A. I'm talking about correcting the paint to near perfection. I am not a pro and maybe therein lies the difference. I just don't see how polish breaks down faster in your garage than in mine. Maybe you use much faster speeds than I do. I typically use Presta UCCL with wool for correction (X2) and 106 with foam for gloss (X1). I'm not being confrontational, I guess what I would really like is to know how the heck you do it? That's all. :think:



Patrick
 
Detailing for profit is different than doing just the things you like to do. I have the same problem around here. Most people wouldn't know if I ran it through a swirl o matic to knock off the worst and spent 1.5 hours on the whole car. They just don't wanna pay for perfect cause they know they cannot maintain it on a daily driver. Also, I find that around here people buy all the car they can afford and they forget to figure in routine maintenence and detailing. Some of the guys with the bimmers and benzs are swirled and driving around with 15k on their oil change. Anyway, work on your demogrophics buy cruzin' the GOOD areas and golf courses, etc. and select people you want to work for by looking for people that not only have a neat car but have a neat appearance themselves. They usually can afford it an will appreciate you. Its taken 1.5 years for me to weed out the soccer mom vans and move up to better rides but I've handed out a million cards and told each person a specific thing I could improve on their car. They love to talk about their babies if they've got money and they immediately ask price if they don't. JMHO
 
I agree you need to pick a business plan that can support your area. Almost all of my details are a good cleaning of the interior and an AIO for the exterior. I do have several clients that have higher end cars (hence all the pics on my website) and I love doing those details, but my bread and butter are the $125 2.5 hour jobs.



Steve
 
I use the Makita at speed 4-5 with an Edge Wave 2000 pad. I use wool on beasts, I do not like doing deep correction with foam pads. I break the hood into eighths and use polish/compoung sparingly. I check the pad / polish combo before getting rolling. Once I have the formula, I launch. I do an IPA wipedown ot remove any suspension / carrying agents left behind upon completion of a panel to verify what I have done. Then its on to step 2, polishing, same process.



Waiting for polish to break down is a way of doing things to learn how to use the material and equipment. But learn to use the abrasive to your satisfaction. Learn to look through the polish and see the surface get corrected as you go. Sometimes the polish may not be "broken down" by some definition, but the surface will be completely corrected. Dont stand on ceremony, just correct the paint.



It's like wet sanding, once you know what you are doing, you can see the degree of correction you have done through the water. Squeegeeing the surface just gives further visual verification that you are correct. You can keep your hand on the paper and continue to remove material until the desired finish is achieved. Time saver. When learning how to do it, you sand a little, wipe it dry, examine, sand a little more, wipe it dry, examine. Worry, think about it, then maybe compound to see if it comes up, then sand again. 50% of the time it should have been sanded more at the start, people are just cautious when they start.
 
ptaylor_9849 said:
I typically use Presta UCCL with wool for correction (X2) and 106 with foam for gloss (X1).
Click to expand...



If by correction you are looking to create a Concours ready vehicle meaning, level all painted surfaces so that they are all of equal depths when measured with a micrometer, then 4 hours for a hood is reasonable.



2x with a wool pad! There is something to review here. I think I have only seen 1 car that I could imagine hitting 2x with a wool pad and compound. It was a black LS430 done by gmblack3a. This car would have benefitted greatly by a full wet sand with a few sheets of 2000, but the owner didnt want to pay, I believe.





img4842bl8.jpg
 
I think I'm pretty much in the same boat as todd here. My customers are anal as all get out about their interiors. even the slightest peice of fuzz left over can net a unstasisfied customer and possibly having to redo the detail. (it's seriously happened over a peice of black lint left on a seatbelt on a $500 beater car) No one cares about the paint around here. I can show them the difference and I get the same "Wow that looks really good... But I don't really care about the outside much" line. I think alot of it really has to do with the value of the cars. I deal in 99% Daily Drivers. putting a swirl free finish on these cars isn't going to increase the value at sale or trade in. The dealers don't mark down value on lease turn in's due to swirls and marrs. Only scratches and dings. So people can't see shelling out any sort of real cash to correct paint. sad really... but thats the reality of the business in my area. If you don't know how to spotlessley clean all interiors your really no good to me. However there's leeway if you don't know how to use a wheel and compound because no one really cares anyways. backwards I tell ya just backwards.
 
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