Accumulator
Well-known member
Blackthornone said:
Ah, never knew that (gee, wonder how it slipped past me?!?). Hmmm...when I have nothing better to do I just might try doing something with a few old pieces. Thanks for posting about this.
Leather Fatliquoring – A Point of Contention!
- Thread starter Roger Koh
- Start date
Ah, never knew that (gee, wonder how it slipped past me?!?). Hmmm...when I have nothing better to do I just might try doing something with a few old pieces. Thanks for posting about this.
togwt
The Old Grey Whistle Test
[For viewers information the American Leather Chemists Association (ALCA) was founded in 1902. Current President for 2011-2012 is Andreas Rhein.
The 2012 108th Annual Convention at Grandover Resort, Greensboro, NC technical program chair is Steve Gilberg and he can be reached by e-mail at [email protected].
Now it’s up to my worthy opponent of this debate to initiate the contact.
Inviting representatives from this reputable more than a hundred years old association would certainly bring this forum to the next level of professionalism.
It would be so exciting!
Roger Koh
[email protected]]
From: jon miller
To: [email protected]
Sent: Saturday, August 27, 2011 4:44 PM
Subject: Clarification on fat liquoring
Steve Gilberg,
Sir, my name is Jon Miller and I’m seeking clarification on fat liquoring. I contribute to an automobile detailing forum (Autopia) and in a thread on the subject of leather care (http://www.autopia.org/forum/car-detailing/136721-leather-steering-wheel-repair.html) quoted the following in response to the need to replace fat liquoring
[Fat liquor is not volatile nor migratory, so leather is not going to lose it. However, along with the fat liquor, the other critical factor is moisture. Any leather is going to lose its moisture in a hot car. Although leather seems dry, it is not. Of course too much moisture quickly leads to mould and mildew problems, so soaking it down is not reasonable. Ideally, exposure to humid atmosphere will help balance the effect of over drying on hot days.
Leather is very dynamic with respect to moisture content, meaning moisture comes and goes easily under normal circumstances....] American Leather Chemists Association (ALCA)
“My contention is that fat liquoring is sealed into the hide at the tannery and doesn’t need replacement to ‘soften’ leather, to maintain its elasticity it only requires hydration. As per the above”
b) Another opinion states that fat liquoring is required
1] Degreasing “ph2.2 > Rinse @ pH3.0
] Dry Preparation
3] Impregnation with a protein compact resin blend compound impregnator to restrengthen the leather structure.
4] Surface repair with a combination of Leather Stucco, Leather Bond and UV Strong Compact Resin Pigment.
5] Adhesion Coating.
6] UV Strong Color Compact Resin Pigment (custom color).
7] Urethane topcoat with matching luster - probably matte, although satin and gloss is available.
8] Non-stick Rub Resistance Protector with a non-slip grip, unlike the seats which uses a natural buttery smooth feel.
Interested to go into details of the why and how?
Roger Koh
[email protected]
And I have miss out the importance of Hydrating the leather 1a) prior to dry prep; thereafter rejuvenate it for softness - with the "life-blood of leather" - a pH 5.0 Fatliquor.
Otherwise without fatliquoring it, it will continue to crack!.”]
I appreciate any input you could provide on this subject
e-mail from Steve Gilbert - American Leather Chemists Association (ALCA)
Hi Jon
I am on vacation this week but I can tell you that under normal conditions there is not need or in reality no real possibility to re fatliquor a finished leather article. It is part of a chemical process during tannage. When I return to the office I will send you some more detailed information. There is a long list of leather conditioning product available on the market but I suspect they offer mostly superficial results. Once I have a chance to read through your thread I will be able to put you in contact with an industry expert in that field.
Thanks and regards,
Steve
[Edited: 08/31 to correct date order of correspondence ]
The 2012 108th Annual Convention at Grandover Resort, Greensboro, NC technical program chair is Steve Gilberg and he can be reached by e-mail at [email protected].
Now it’s up to my worthy opponent of this debate to initiate the contact.
Inviting representatives from this reputable more than a hundred years old association would certainly bring this forum to the next level of professionalism.
It would be so exciting!
Roger Koh
[email protected]]
From: jon miller
To: [email protected]
Sent: Saturday, August 27, 2011 4:44 PM
Subject: Clarification on fat liquoring
Steve Gilberg,
Sir, my name is Jon Miller and I’m seeking clarification on fat liquoring. I contribute to an automobile detailing forum (Autopia) and in a thread on the subject of leather care (http://www.autopia.org/forum/car-detailing/136721-leather-steering-wheel-repair.html) quoted the following in response to the need to replace fat liquoring
[Fat liquor is not volatile nor migratory, so leather is not going to lose it. However, along with the fat liquor, the other critical factor is moisture. Any leather is going to lose its moisture in a hot car. Although leather seems dry, it is not. Of course too much moisture quickly leads to mould and mildew problems, so soaking it down is not reasonable. Ideally, exposure to humid atmosphere will help balance the effect of over drying on hot days.
Leather is very dynamic with respect to moisture content, meaning moisture comes and goes easily under normal circumstances....] American Leather Chemists Association (ALCA)
“My contention is that fat liquoring is sealed into the hide at the tannery and doesn’t need replacement to ‘soften’ leather, to maintain its elasticity it only requires hydration. As per the above”
b) Another opinion states that fat liquoring is required
1] Degreasing “ph2.2 > Rinse @ pH3.0
] Dry Preparation
3] Impregnation with a protein compact resin blend compound impregnator to restrengthen the leather structure.
4] Surface repair with a combination of Leather Stucco, Leather Bond and UV Strong Compact Resin Pigment.
5] Adhesion Coating.
6] UV Strong Color Compact Resin Pigment (custom color).
7] Urethane topcoat with matching luster - probably matte, although satin and gloss is available.
8] Non-stick Rub Resistance Protector with a non-slip grip, unlike the seats which uses a natural buttery smooth feel.
Interested to go into details of the why and how?
Roger Koh
[email protected]
And I have miss out the importance of Hydrating the leather 1a) prior to dry prep; thereafter rejuvenate it for softness - with the "life-blood of leather" - a pH 5.0 Fatliquor.
Otherwise without fatliquoring it, it will continue to crack!.”]
I appreciate any input you could provide on this subject
e-mail from Steve Gilbert - American Leather Chemists Association (ALCA)
Hi Jon
I am on vacation this week but I can tell you that under normal conditions there is not need or in reality no real possibility to re fatliquor a finished leather article. It is part of a chemical process during tannage. When I return to the office I will send you some more detailed information. There is a long list of leather conditioning product available on the market but I suspect they offer mostly superficial results. Once I have a chance to read through your thread I will be able to put you in contact with an industry expert in that field.
Thanks and regards,
Steve
[Edited: 08/31 to correct date order of correspondence ]
wascallyrabbit
New member
subscribed
togwt
The Old Grey Whistle Test
David Fermani said:
Any feedback on this David?
Dan said:
I've never even heard of Vital before, you have about 1000x more experience than I do, and I also do not know what you consider "long term" to be. But to offer one small anecdotal bit, I've used Rejuvenator on about 5-6 cars now, and one of those is a friend's ungaraged '99 328i, no tint, and one year later the improved softness remains. (On the other cars, I haven't got to see them again since the process.) There were parts of the backseat leather that were too far gone for the product to make them soft again, but they are still improved by my recollection. The biggest remaining improvement, from what I can tell or remember, is with the backs of the front seats (very soft).
I don't even know how many types of leather there are, but on a LS400 I had very limited time, and let the stuff sit only for an hour or so. The difference was still marked.
I would love to hear comparisons between Vital and Leatherique, whether scientific or anecdotal. I am just about out of the Rejuvenator and will place an order later this month. (However, I still have plenty of Prestine; can I use that to wipe off the Vital, assuming the process is somewhat similar?)
Lotuseffect
New member
Subscribed and Ill jst add this. I am by no means a leather expert. But I used Roger's products on a cadillac ESV leather interior this week and they made me look like an expert. I used the Prep 7, Supercleaner, folowed by the Rinse, and the leather immediately looked 100% better and nearly new. Since it was in good condition there was no need for the hydrator or fatliquor.
I know there are alot of great leather products on the amrket, but for ease of use, and results, Ill keep buying refills from Roger.
I know there are alot of great leather products on the amrket, but for ease of use, and results, Ill keep buying refills from Roger.
David Fermani
Forza Auto Salon
TOGWT said:
Nope. I recieved the identical reply from Steve Gilberg. I also e-mailed Steve Tanmack (technical mgr of the ACLA), The Leather Research Laboratory (Nick Corey -Director) and John Reddington
(President) & Susan Hogan(Manager) from the USHSLA. Nobody has given any input on this issue.
togwt
The Old Grey Whistle Test
[To make this debate credible, the original contributor or author or its official spokesman from the American Leather Chemists Association (ALCA) should be invited by the person that quoted the above statement to participate as well?]
Post#22 was the response from American Leather Chemists Association (ALCA) but there seems to be no further comments from the OP.
Post#22 was the response from American Leather Chemists Association (ALCA) but there seems to be no further comments from the OP.
Bill D
Hooked For Life
TOGWT said:
I was really hoping Steve would elaborate more on his remarks about the superficial results. Would products like Leatherique and Leather Master's Vital apply ?
Greg Nichols
New member
Subscribed to learn more. I think Judy Bass should add to this thread.
Cheers,
GREG
Cheers,
GREG
Xilleration
Lumin De Lumine
This was an interesting thread. I'm pretty sure Judy would just say to clean with a high-quality foam leather hydrating-cleaner and then seal without using any conditioner or oils.
Personally, I have used Roger's system and I have also used leatherique and Leather Master Vital as well as LTT and lots of other systems. There are several issues that pose a problem though. On automotive leather, if it has gotten to the stage where the leather has gone like cardboard or lost its suppleness, then there is a chance that there could a problem that needs more than a basic "conditioning". In fact that could make the problem a lot worse.
There is also the problem that a lot of what you apply to the surface will either simply sit on top of the urethane finish or it could even contribute to the premature aging of the urethane topcoat. It depends on the product used and the type of oils that it comprises of and how they affect the crosslinkers or binders.
I've been down the path of the ALCA a few years ago. I received the same outright advice and that was to not use off-the-shelf conditioners on leather as they serve no real purpose. And that is basically what I found myself with all of the "brand" leather conditioners. They usually just turned out to be water-based emulsions with scent, PDMS and an insignificant amount of their active ingredient (lanolin, neatsfoot, etc).
There are many leather products and sectors where products like Leatherique and Vital serve a purpose such as equestrian, fashion, certain furnishings, but in the automotive sector they serve a limited purpose. The modern tanning process is such that the leather should not need any interventional conditioning. Most leather is Chrome Tanned as is about 80% of all leather, including footwear, clothing etc. However some, like Volvo, do not use chrome-tanned leather. They like modified syntan/glutarldehyde tanning systems from the Bridge Of Weir Tannery. You don't want or need to apply conditioner to that leather.
So how do you determine if your leather has a problem? It could be hard leather as that is the way it came from the manufacturers. If you start introducing fat-liquor to it, you could upset the whole equation. You could be wreaking havoc on the mould inhibitors, especially on German cars!!
For detailers, its a tough call to make. Your customers want leather cleaned and "conditioned" and will pay you for that and don't need a complicated life. In my experience, simply cleaning, sealing and applying a strong leather scent to the interior makes them more than happy. I think on cheaper details on regular cars, you don't need to worry so much. These cars have a limited life-cycle anyway. But if you have Bentleys, Aston Martins, Lamborghini, and a few other very prestige marques, then definitely do not use generic conditioners. The leather is different on these cars and goes through a much better tanning process. These are cars that the leather needs to be "preserved" rather than just conditioned.
"Preserving" is a deductive and diagnostic treatment of leather. Mostly it just involves cleaning and applying protective coatings. (Fluorocarbon is used a lot in the sealants and protectants, but I find durability is an issue. There are also acrylic latex coatings but they seem to give an unwelcome gloss a lot of the time.) But a "preserving" approach will make you think twice when you see cracks or stretch-marks forming on certain panels of the seat, or if you see the steering wheel begin to show signs of wear. What do you apply then? It could be Roger's Fat-Liquor or maybe a little leatherique into the damaged area to prevent the fibrils from further detachment. It could be other products that are out there, but not so well known.
Like I said, its a tough call for detailers. You should take one or the other side of the fence. Either keep using off-the-shelf conditioners and don't stress about the leather finishes - nobody ever did before, so why start now -..... or else go and learn about leather problems and trouble-shooting, leather products and treatments, how to preserve and how to restore leather. BTW, you won't ever get enough information on leather from a web-site or a forum. You need to speak to people in the industry for a proper education.
Sorry for another spanner in the werkz!!
KaPow!
Personally, I have used Roger's system and I have also used leatherique and Leather Master Vital as well as LTT and lots of other systems. There are several issues that pose a problem though. On automotive leather, if it has gotten to the stage where the leather has gone like cardboard or lost its suppleness, then there is a chance that there could a problem that needs more than a basic "conditioning". In fact that could make the problem a lot worse.
There is also the problem that a lot of what you apply to the surface will either simply sit on top of the urethane finish or it could even contribute to the premature aging of the urethane topcoat. It depends on the product used and the type of oils that it comprises of and how they affect the crosslinkers or binders.
I've been down the path of the ALCA a few years ago. I received the same outright advice and that was to not use off-the-shelf conditioners on leather as they serve no real purpose. And that is basically what I found myself with all of the "brand" leather conditioners. They usually just turned out to be water-based emulsions with scent, PDMS and an insignificant amount of their active ingredient (lanolin, neatsfoot, etc).
There are many leather products and sectors where products like Leatherique and Vital serve a purpose such as equestrian, fashion, certain furnishings, but in the automotive sector they serve a limited purpose. The modern tanning process is such that the leather should not need any interventional conditioning. Most leather is Chrome Tanned as is about 80% of all leather, including footwear, clothing etc. However some, like Volvo, do not use chrome-tanned leather. They like modified syntan/glutarldehyde tanning systems from the Bridge Of Weir Tannery. You don't want or need to apply conditioner to that leather.
So how do you determine if your leather has a problem? It could be hard leather as that is the way it came from the manufacturers. If you start introducing fat-liquor to it, you could upset the whole equation. You could be wreaking havoc on the mould inhibitors, especially on German cars!!
For detailers, its a tough call to make. Your customers want leather cleaned and "conditioned" and will pay you for that and don't need a complicated life. In my experience, simply cleaning, sealing and applying a strong leather scent to the interior makes them more than happy. I think on cheaper details on regular cars, you don't need to worry so much. These cars have a limited life-cycle anyway. But if you have Bentleys, Aston Martins, Lamborghini, and a few other very prestige marques, then definitely do not use generic conditioners. The leather is different on these cars and goes through a much better tanning process. These are cars that the leather needs to be "preserved" rather than just conditioned.
"Preserving" is a deductive and diagnostic treatment of leather. Mostly it just involves cleaning and applying protective coatings. (Fluorocarbon is used a lot in the sealants and protectants, but I find durability is an issue. There are also acrylic latex coatings but they seem to give an unwelcome gloss a lot of the time.) But a "preserving" approach will make you think twice when you see cracks or stretch-marks forming on certain panels of the seat, or if you see the steering wheel begin to show signs of wear. What do you apply then? It could be Roger's Fat-Liquor or maybe a little leatherique into the damaged area to prevent the fibrils from further detachment. It could be other products that are out there, but not so well known.
Like I said, its a tough call for detailers. You should take one or the other side of the fence. Either keep using off-the-shelf conditioners and don't stress about the leather finishes - nobody ever did before, so why start now -..... or else go and learn about leather problems and trouble-shooting, leather products and treatments, how to preserve and how to restore leather. BTW, you won't ever get enough information on leather from a web-site or a forum. You need to speak to people in the industry for a proper education.
Sorry for another spanner in the werkz!!
KaPow!
togwt
The Old Grey Whistle Test
There is a great deal of conflicting information on leather care being put out by the leather experts themselves who use baffling pseudo scientific techno speak as opposed to real facts, which makes it difficult to find a definitive, unbiased answer.
[BTW, you won't ever get enough information on leather from a web-site or a forum. You need to speak to people in the industry for a proper education.]
I find it very difficult to believe that when a body like the ALCA provides an answer interested parties choose to ignore it without providing any justification
[BTW, you won't ever get enough information on leather from a web-site or a forum. You need to speak to people in the industry for a proper education.]
I find it very difficult to believe that when a body like the ALCA provides an answer interested parties choose to ignore it without providing any justification
Xilleration
Lumin De Lumine
TOGWT said:
Yes, Jon. We have had the discussion before on DW about three years ago.
And we are all guilty of scientific techno speak....
I've been doing leather restoration as well as high end detailing for a long time and in that time I have spoken to a lot of chemists, product developers, marketers and other interested parties in the leather care sector. They nearly all have different opinions of how to take care of automotive leather that is aging. Some say don't introduce anything or it will have detrimental effects. Others will say use their very special product that will perform miracles due to effect Y or effect Z.
I haven't ignored the information given by ALCA and don't forget the SLTC or the IULTCS where you also meet very well advised people. They have an appreciation of worldwide leather processing and manufacturing techniques and give good advice on the treatment of leather. In my experience their advice is for preventative maintenance. Restorative maintenance is different and that is why you need to check other sectors of the leather care industry. That is why I said you won't ever get enough information on a website or forum and you do need to obtain a broader perspective before you can either give or accept information and deciding whether it is positively or negatively biased.
Leather care is either a good clean and protect job (and don't worry about the technicalities) or else it is in itself a separate craft to detailing that requires separate education and experience.
Thanks Jon. Hope the Whistle Test re-runs are keeping you in good form!
togwt
The Old Grey Whistle Test
Thanks for the reminder on our discussions on DW (factual info on leather is indeed a long, long road) and thanks for our input to this thread, its appreciated
I was watching OGWT with Anne Nightingale, Bob Harris et al last night, brings back great memories. I had no idea they changed it to Whistle Test and changed its format (whatever happened to 'if it ain't broke...') I left for the US late '70''s and had not idea of the changes made
I was watching OGWT with Anne Nightingale, Bob Harris et al last night, brings back great memories. I had no idea they changed it to Whistle Test and changed its format (whatever happened to 'if it ain't broke...') I left for the US late '70''s and had not idea of the changes made
Xilleration
Lumin De Lumine
togwt
The Old Grey Whistle Test
Have been doing some research on leather and found some very interesting information that you can add to your knowledge base, and dazzle your customers with your knowhow.
Today much of the leather manufacturing, like so many things, has moved away from Europe and the UK into Asia.
The most common type of leather used is cowhide.
Did you know there are over 100 steps in making leather and it is a very labor intensive process. Without getting to complicated and providing you more information than you need let me give you information on two points that I think will help you.
Fatliquoring - This is the wet-end softening process, known as fatliquoring. Oils are added in the tanning or retanning pricess to make the hide soft and flexible. In the very old days leather was simply "stuffed" with oils and fasts and were left to just sit in the fiber structure.
But over time, the oils migrated out of the leather and consequently the oils had to be replaced at regular intervals and so the idea of "feeding leather" grew in nomenclature and popularity.
If the oils were not replaced the leather would become hard, it would shrink and crack.
But leather manufacturing and the development of sophisticated chemicals has created oils that meet very high specificiations.
These oils are typically full reacted to the fiber structure and as a consequence a minimal amount of the oil will migrate out of the leather. Because of this low migration it is really NOT NECESSARY to continually add conditioners and creams to replace lost oils.
Boy, that blows a lot of commonly held myths about leather doesn't it?
Finishing - The finishing process, where a coating is applied to the leather surface to obtain certain desired colors, has also changed. Color is appled using pigments. Pigments require binding to improve flexibility, fastness and adhesion to the leather. This was achieved in the past by using "casein" and resin but these products have poor physical properties in terms of flexibility and color fastness. So the finish would form small cracks over time.
They also used something call "nitrocellulose," and the unstable plasticizers would migrate in the heat from sun exposure in a vehicle.
As a way to prevent plasticizer migration the use of leather conditioners were needed to try and put the suppleness back in the leather.
However, once again today's leathers are finished using sophisticated binder systems that incorporate high acrylic and polyurethane resins.
These systems give leather an enhanced resistence and as a result, the leather finish should not crack.
After two or three base coat applications the clear top coat is applied. The final stage of the finishing process, is designed to make the leather more resistant to wear and tear and provide medium hardness allowing the leather extra flexibility and increased properties like color fastness which in term improves the overall finish. A variety of additives can also be added to modify the feel and appearance of leather and the heat sensitivity is also improved in today's processes.
Frankly speaking, today's leathers use a completely different finishing system and as a result to not need to be treated with products containing oils. Most leather experts believe that today's leather conditioners remain on the surface of the leather and simply attract dirt and dust.]
(Information provided by Dr Leather) - Auto Detailing Network forum
Today much of the leather manufacturing, like so many things, has moved away from Europe and the UK into Asia.
The most common type of leather used is cowhide.
Did you know there are over 100 steps in making leather and it is a very labor intensive process. Without getting to complicated and providing you more information than you need let me give you information on two points that I think will help you.
Fatliquoring - This is the wet-end softening process, known as fatliquoring. Oils are added in the tanning or retanning pricess to make the hide soft and flexible. In the very old days leather was simply "stuffed" with oils and fasts and were left to just sit in the fiber structure.
But over time, the oils migrated out of the leather and consequently the oils had to be replaced at regular intervals and so the idea of "feeding leather" grew in nomenclature and popularity.
If the oils were not replaced the leather would become hard, it would shrink and crack.
But leather manufacturing and the development of sophisticated chemicals has created oils that meet very high specificiations.
These oils are typically full reacted to the fiber structure and as a consequence a minimal amount of the oil will migrate out of the leather. Because of this low migration it is really NOT NECESSARY to continually add conditioners and creams to replace lost oils.
Boy, that blows a lot of commonly held myths about leather doesn't it?
Finishing - The finishing process, where a coating is applied to the leather surface to obtain certain desired colors, has also changed. Color is appled using pigments. Pigments require binding to improve flexibility, fastness and adhesion to the leather. This was achieved in the past by using "casein" and resin but these products have poor physical properties in terms of flexibility and color fastness. So the finish would form small cracks over time.
They also used something call "nitrocellulose," and the unstable plasticizers would migrate in the heat from sun exposure in a vehicle.
As a way to prevent plasticizer migration the use of leather conditioners were needed to try and put the suppleness back in the leather.
However, once again today's leathers are finished using sophisticated binder systems that incorporate high acrylic and polyurethane resins.
These systems give leather an enhanced resistence and as a result, the leather finish should not crack.
After two or three base coat applications the clear top coat is applied. The final stage of the finishing process, is designed to make the leather more resistant to wear and tear and provide medium hardness allowing the leather extra flexibility and increased properties like color fastness which in term improves the overall finish. A variety of additives can also be added to modify the feel and appearance of leather and the heat sensitivity is also improved in today's processes.
Frankly speaking, today's leathers use a completely different finishing system and as a result to not need to be treated with products containing oils. Most leather experts believe that today's leather conditioners remain on the surface of the leather and simply attract dirt and dust.]
(Information provided by Dr Leather) - Auto Detailing Network forum
judyb
New member
Loads of good info here. The methods and treatment of modern leather finishes is what we have been teaching for years both here and in the USA.
I would give the advice to clean and protect - not seal the leather as this would prevent the leather from breathing. Protection protects the finish on the leather from dirt and oils thus keeping it in good condition. This is simple straightforward advice in answer to questions that have been asked. As instructors to the industry we teach much more in depth leather care on our courses.
The problem we have when dealing with information on forums (particularly the detailing forums) is that we are dealing with a wide spectrum of people from leather experts to professional detailers to the general public so trying to answer everyone in one thread is always difficult.
Expert advice should always be sought if you want more detailed advice.
We continue to build on our expertise and knowledge of modern day leathers - met with leaders in the industry only this week and spoke extensively about fat liquoring, conditioning and protectors which are continuing to advance.
If anyone wants further advice just ask we will be happy to help.
Judyb
I would give the advice to clean and protect - not seal the leather as this would prevent the leather from breathing. Protection protects the finish on the leather from dirt and oils thus keeping it in good condition. This is simple straightforward advice in answer to questions that have been asked. As instructors to the industry we teach much more in depth leather care on our courses.
The problem we have when dealing with information on forums (particularly the detailing forums) is that we are dealing with a wide spectrum of people from leather experts to professional detailers to the general public so trying to answer everyone in one thread is always difficult.
Expert advice should always be sought if you want more detailed advice.
We continue to build on our expertise and knowledge of modern day leathers - met with leaders in the industry only this week and spoke extensively about fat liquoring, conditioning and protectors which are continuing to advance.
If anyone wants further advice just ask we will be happy to help.
Judyb
judyb said:
I have bought previously from LTT (just a disclaimer).
Judy.. how can you make a statement like that about not sealing to prevent it from breathing if you are of the camp that leather is coated (urethane etc.). If leather if finished coated, it can not breathe, the same as it can let out oils out if it is coated/sealed.
A simply view of looking at the finish coat/sealer is like wraping the leather in clear suran wrap. Nothing can penerate the layer either from within the leather out or an application into the leather. I appreciate the clean and protect concept as body oils and dirt can erode the finishing coat but as long a sthe finish coat is intact, the maintenance should only be vac, wipe and protect with a UV inhibitor to provent an UV damage.
My Lexus ISF polar white seats are a challenge and unfortunately, I had an issue with a leather dye transfer from a winter jacket that seemed to have worked its way deeply into the leather or at least deeply into the finish coat. After having discussed the issue directly with Lexus and some higher end refinishers I was able to track down exactly which coating it was, Lexus uses an atypical finish coat and there is only 1 person in all of the USA and no one in Canada the works with it. I'll try and find the email and post the info here. I find the leather in my BMW X6 3.5i (saddle brown) way way more durable and easier to maintain. Definitely a much more durable and robust finishing system vs. the Lexus hide. It's a tougher/rougher feel to it then the Lexus buttery soft touch but for an everday driver, I would prefer the BMW hide to the delicate Lexus.
So I think this discussion needs to also take that into consideration. That different manufacturers and even between their own series lines used different finishing on their leathers so a 1 product fits all is probably not a good approach to take. If we could somehow build a database here of different manufacturers and their finishes and then how to take care of it, that would be hugely helpful to the community. I find the leather in my G37s (I'm a business owner with several cars for sales staff), to be more vinyl like. I find each requires its very different care.
judyb
New member
Sealing leather completely prevents the leather from breathing. All leather however finished has to allow transpiration (the flow of moisture back and forth through the leather). This means that the leather can be treated with water based products as the moisture from the products is able to penetrate the finishes.
You are quite right that there are many many different finishes on the market (too many to perfect a complete database) and some will absorb more readily than others. The amount of finish will also affect the rate of absorption of things like dyes. Dyes can be very aggressive and can stain some finishes very easily and the longer they are on the leather the further they will penetrate the finish.
Using a good quality leather protector will eliminate dye transfer altogether. The latest protectors are guaranteed and have been tested over an 11 year period and have proved to prevent dye transfer altogether.
As I have pointed out it is difficult to answer all points on a forum each time we post as I tend to post information relevant to the point in question.
We have the latest protectors if you are interested and these will be useful for your Lexus which obviously has a much finer finish on it than the BMW. I think I have said before that dye transfer depends on the type of leather used and the strength of the dyes in the object causing the dye transfer, most of the time these two variables would be difficult to identify (by an expert never mind a layman) as you have found when trying to identify the finish in question on the Lexus.
The best policy on all light coloured leather is to protect it against dirt and dye transfer.
Hope this helps
Judyb
You are quite right that there are many many different finishes on the market (too many to perfect a complete database) and some will absorb more readily than others. The amount of finish will also affect the rate of absorption of things like dyes. Dyes can be very aggressive and can stain some finishes very easily and the longer they are on the leather the further they will penetrate the finish.
Using a good quality leather protector will eliminate dye transfer altogether. The latest protectors are guaranteed and have been tested over an 11 year period and have proved to prevent dye transfer altogether.
As I have pointed out it is difficult to answer all points on a forum each time we post as I tend to post information relevant to the point in question.
We have the latest protectors if you are interested and these will be useful for your Lexus which obviously has a much finer finish on it than the BMW. I think I have said before that dye transfer depends on the type of leather used and the strength of the dyes in the object causing the dye transfer, most of the time these two variables would be difficult to identify (by an expert never mind a layman) as you have found when trying to identify the finish in question on the Lexus.
The best policy on all light coloured leather is to protect it against dirt and dye transfer.
Hope this helps
Judyb