I don't have a Horse in this Race....I do not own or have ever used such Iron dissolving products, but the last post above. Ron.....is a pretty loaded comment..I've read up alot of IronX as it seems like ALOT of people have replaced claying by using this in their prep process in conjunction with Nanoscrub. I'm not saying who's wrong on right, but your last post seems to suggest that ironX is quite deadly, even with how people are currently using them in their pre-polishing process.
Iron X, truly a safe product for finishes?
- Thread starter imported_RedlineIRL
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imported_PiPUK
New member
bryansbestwax said:
Tar -X and Trix would be expected to cause problems. Since they use high levels of potent solvents, they will be too aggressive for use on plastic films like clear bras. This is generic of the product type. For instance, you do not use a solvent tar remover on plastic trims unless is specifically states it is ok to do so.
The potency of chemicals is often neglected. In the UK, tar removers are big business and the big detailing forums use them like they were water to drink on a hot day. There are very few who appreciate that many of the solvents they are using are also central in products like paint strippers - as before, this bit of knowledge is quite useful because it means the user will treat the product with a measure of respect.
togwt
The Old Grey Whistle Test
The inherent danger of “I don’t need someone to tell me about the chemicals, I just want something that will work good”
As was alluded to on a previous post a very basic understanding of chemistry is required if you’re working with chemicals (acids, solvents, and etc) to protect not only yourself but the vehicles materials you may be working with
As was alluded to on a previous post a very basic understanding of chemistry is required if you’re working with chemicals (acids, solvents, and etc) to protect not only yourself but the vehicles materials you may be working with
Ron Ketcham
Active member
Was not referring to any single product or brand of product. I was offering some insightful information regarding any water borne chemical detailers may use. Be it an all purpose cleaner, a car wash solution, or if a polish, etc that contain some hydrocarbon based solvents in them.
Heat is something that few consider when working with detailing products until there is a concern.
Heat is something that few consider when working with detailing products until there is a concern.
Not to take this off topic, but what Tar Remover is safe for plastic.
Because the majority of tar, if I get them is wheelwheels, under the rear bumper (sometimes portions of them unpainted) and or just under the door rockers. In my case, ALL my cars have PPF under the door rockers (some less than others) due to whether there is a moulding strip on the door. All these area to me is *plastic* and these are the most common places if I was to get Tar - and I just looked at my can of Stoners Tarminator, and it says *safe for clearcoat*.
So the ? - what is safe for plastic ?
Because the majority of tar, if I get them is wheelwheels, under the rear bumper (sometimes portions of them unpainted) and or just under the door rockers. In my case, ALL my cars have PPF under the door rockers (some less than others) due to whether there is a moulding strip on the door. All these area to me is *plastic* and these are the most common places if I was to get Tar - and I just looked at my can of Stoners Tarminator, and it says *safe for clearcoat*.
So the ? - what is safe for plastic ?
Ron Ketcham
Active member
I am not saying to be be a smart-a-s, but should be considered--
What kind of plastic?
Lots of different plastics used. Exterior is usually either a molded ABS or a molded "rubber'plastic" blend.
Some tar removers, hydrocarbon based, may discolor either, due to the used of some xylene in the blend. Other times, a detailer will clean such parts as you mentioned, and remove the old dressings that are on it, revealing a "discolored" part. Normally, that part was already discolored due to someone wiping with acetone or lacquer thinner, or products with a percentage of xylene in them, or even old age and uv exposure.
I know that the ValuGard New Car Prep is as safe as you can buy but never heard of any concerns being created by Tarminator either.
Of course if the parts are discolored and one wishes to return them to new and have them stay that way for a few years, it's ValuGard ETR kit time.
What kind of plastic?
Lots of different plastics used. Exterior is usually either a molded ABS or a molded "rubber'plastic" blend.
Some tar removers, hydrocarbon based, may discolor either, due to the used of some xylene in the blend. Other times, a detailer will clean such parts as you mentioned, and remove the old dressings that are on it, revealing a "discolored" part. Normally, that part was already discolored due to someone wiping with acetone or lacquer thinner, or products with a percentage of xylene in them, or even old age and uv exposure.
I know that the ValuGard New Car Prep is as safe as you can buy but never heard of any concerns being created by Tarminator either.
Of course if the parts are discolored and one wishes to return them to new and have them stay that way for a few years, it's ValuGard ETR kit time.
imported_PiPUK
New member
I have limited experience of tar removers on the US market. Over here the simple reality is that very very few tar removers are safe on plastics - discolouration is to be expected. As Ron says, the precise material does matter - it is much more common to discolour a bumper than to cause damage to the plastic lining wheel arches.
I would point out that xylene is only one of numerous aggressive solvents which can cause issue. I would further point out that these same solvents tend to be the best at dissolving tar! It is a very difficult balance and one the UK community has entirely failed to grasp - the more effective the product is at tar removal, the more harmful it will be for plastics (and, for that matter, other finishes). An example of a product which gets a lot of stick is autoglym intensive tar remover (can you guys get autoglym?). This is a very safe product and I have not heard of it causing issue with plastics. However, it is consequently slower to react and dissolve tar. Thus, the detailing world community generally considers it useless.
I would point out that xylene is only one of numerous aggressive solvents which can cause issue. I would further point out that these same solvents tend to be the best at dissolving tar! It is a very difficult balance and one the UK community has entirely failed to grasp - the more effective the product is at tar removal, the more harmful it will be for plastics (and, for that matter, other finishes). An example of a product which gets a lot of stick is autoglym intensive tar remover (can you guys get autoglym?). This is a very safe product and I have not heard of it causing issue with plastics. However, it is consequently slower to react and dissolve tar. Thus, the detailing world community generally considers it useless.
Ron Ketcham
Active member
We have many, what I term, "bath-tubber" car care companies in the States.
Many just find a common formula in the "book" and decide to "up the agressive components" in order to make the product work faster, as that is what their customers request. Of course the "customers" are not aware of what various components may negatively affect in the long term many of the surfaces they are used on.
Over here, xylene is one of the chemical additions, even though California, OSHA, etc have recognized it's carcenigenic values and require very strong warnings on the product label.
Most do not even take the time to "read and follow" the label's warnings.
The common response is "It works great for me and I have never had any problems, etc".
A little time spent doing some research regarding solvents such as xylene on the human body might wake them up.
I always have a quart or so of xylene in my fire proof solvent cabinet and won't even open the can without wearing chemical proof gloves and if going to work with more than a half an ounce, wear my good respirator.
Can be very nasty stuff! As many clorinated, etc solvents can be.
Many just find a common formula in the "book" and decide to "up the agressive components" in order to make the product work faster, as that is what their customers request. Of course the "customers" are not aware of what various components may negatively affect in the long term many of the surfaces they are used on.
Over here, xylene is one of the chemical additions, even though California, OSHA, etc have recognized it's carcenigenic values and require very strong warnings on the product label.
Most do not even take the time to "read and follow" the label's warnings.
The common response is "It works great for me and I have never had any problems, etc".
A little time spent doing some research regarding solvents such as xylene on the human body might wake them up.
I always have a quart or so of xylene in my fire proof solvent cabinet and won't even open the can without wearing chemical proof gloves and if going to work with more than a half an ounce, wear my good respirator.
Can be very nasty stuff! As many clorinated, etc solvents can be.
imported_PiPUK
New member
Ron Ketcham said:
Don't think it is just the US - it happens even more here in the UK!
My biggest beef is that these practices are stifling development. Tar removers are a great example - there is simply no point in developing these products when the nasty products tend to do the job most quickly and at the lowest cost. The fact that alternatives are safer or you use less are utterly ignored by the average user when they can buy a gallon of the nasty product for half as much. In my view the reality is that preferences like this indicate that high end detailing considerations are now secondary to speed and cost.
Ron Ketcham
Active member
Developement of the New Car Prep was well worth it for my old company.
The private label orders from Chrysler and Ford each month really makes it worthwhile.
It is a bit different than most, and since you are in the business I don't have to name the active solvent.
Let's just say that when it went through both the car companies world wide health and safety labs before they would approve it, caused quite an uproar.
"What, it is a solvent, it is non-flammable and non-combustible? No way"
You know the solvent, and it ain't delimolene, really elegant solvent.
We had a lot of fun educating the lab boys at both companies, once they had the data, BINGO-- instant approval for private labeling.
The private label orders from Chrysler and Ford each month really makes it worthwhile.
It is a bit different than most, and since you are in the business I don't have to name the active solvent.
Let's just say that when it went through both the car companies world wide health and safety labs before they would approve it, caused quite an uproar.
"What, it is a solvent, it is non-flammable and non-combustible? No way"
You know the solvent, and it ain't delimolene, really elegant solvent.
We had a lot of fun educating the lab boys at both companies, once they had the data, BINGO-- instant approval for private labeling.
David Fermani
Forza Auto Salon
Again, for practical purposes, detailers/customers only care about removing the appearance of the spots. Clay has been the old stand by for decades now and has been the SOP for almost every car care company around. Is it the 10000% most effective way at neutralizing the issue for the here and now moment....No. But, I divert back to what is the biggest concern = removing what your eyes can see.
Even if you do the "right thing" to rectify the issue, it's not like that's a permanent fix anyways. The problem ends up returning. But just from scratch and not from what may or may not have been left the last time.
Even if you do the "right thing" to rectify the issue, it's not like that's a permanent fix anyways. The problem ends up returning. But just from scratch and not from what may or may not have been left the last time.
Ron Ketcham
Active member
YUP!, Just make me happy now!
What is the new term for the present younger working generation- Milliemum's?(sp)
"I want it, I want it now, give it to me, don't confuse me with facts, just give it to me! I am not going to work hard for it, just give it to me, now!"
What is the new term for the present younger working generation- Milliemum's?(sp)
"I want it, I want it now, give it to me, don't confuse me with facts, just give it to me! I am not going to work hard for it, just give it to me, now!"
imported_RedlineIRL
New member
Well, I bought some IronX and I am going to give it a shot.
Your post has me concerned now, to the point I am going to be extremely cautious. So basically if the vehicle surface is not warm to the touch, and it is out of the sunlught, it should be fine? Will washing with warm water increase the reactivity? Any other precautions?
I have read the IronX must be rinsed off completely and should not be allowed to dry on. It seems that my trunk lid always seems to hold water under after each wash, along with other crevices. What can I do to ensure that no reminants are left of IronX?
Ron Ketcham said:
Your post has me concerned now, to the point I am going to be extremely cautious. So basically if the vehicle surface is not warm to the touch, and it is out of the sunlught, it should be fine? Will washing with warm water increase the reactivity? Any other precautions?
I have read the IronX must be rinsed off completely and should not be allowed to dry on. It seems that my trunk lid always seems to hold water under after each wash, along with other crevices. What can I do to ensure that no reminants are left of IronX?
CEE DOG
New member
Iron X can be allowed to dry as long as it isn't drying in the sun. Is there a reason to let it dry? No. Should you let any cleaning chemical dry on your paint? In general - No. But in the shade no harm is caused according to the manufacturer of the product.
Rinsing well is all that is needed to fully remove IX. When I say rinsing well I like to use a mitt just as I would with any product that was sprayed on the surface. For any that is getting into crevices rinse those crevices well.
After any wash its advisable to open doors, hood, and lid to wipe down. I like to use Ultima waterless wash for this.
That is typically to avoid water spots in there and of course clean them.
On the off chance you didn't flush the IX out it would be removed by that step.
Rinsing well is all that is needed to fully remove IX. When I say rinsing well I like to use a mitt just as I would with any product that was sprayed on the surface. For any that is getting into crevices rinse those crevices well.
After any wash its advisable to open doors, hood, and lid to wipe down. I like to use Ultima waterless wash for this.
That is typically to avoid water spots in there and of course clean them.
On the off chance you didn't flush the IX out it would be removed by that step.
imported_PiPUK
New member
CEE DOG said:
This has been stated repeatedly by many experts in many fields and should be central to the knowledge a detailer holds. The vast majority of the time, there will be no harm. However, as Ron has pointed out, drying out will lead to the actives becoming more concentrated on the surface and this poses an elevated risk. Sooner or later, no matter how much testing is done, a product left to dry will cause someone, somewhere a problem. I know certain manufacturers are happy to recommend products allowed to dry but it remains a practice avoided if possible. Routinely letting any product dry simple increases the chance that you become that 1 in 10 thousand who has a problem - best leave that risk to Joe McAverage who has no real knowledge, detailers should be expected to know better.
CEE DOG
New member
That depends on who you are and what you plan to achieve. In general and the way its most often used it is in conjunction with claying.
Iron X only attacks the iron particles, therefore you should also use something like Tar X, Tardis, or clay to remove the organic contaminants.
On some vehicles you'll find the Iron X and Tar X removes everything while on others clay may still find some contaminants.
After I've coated a vehicle in Cquartz I usually find iron x is all I need to keep it contaminant free other than regular car washes of course.
Iron X only attacks the iron particles, therefore you should also use something like Tar X, Tardis, or clay to remove the organic contaminants.
On some vehicles you'll find the Iron X and Tar X removes everything while on others clay may still find some contaminants.
After I've coated a vehicle in Cquartz I usually find iron x is all I need to keep it contaminant free other than regular car washes of course.
togwt
The Old Grey Whistle Test
xabo said:
Be cognizant that there are two types of paint contamination, (a) above surface and (b) below surface. Before the advent of detailer’s clay it was a common practice to remove paint-overspray with a one-sided razor blade and a surface lubricant or by polishing the surface with a compound / polish and a wool pad. This was later repalced with detailers clay
a) Detailer's clay - removes paint surface contaminants i.e. it abrades the top section of an iron particle, leaving what is below the paint surface to remain. Once water and heat (reactivity) is added the below surface particulates act as a conduit and the corrosion process is started.
b) Paint decontamination systems were developed as a method of removing ferrous contamination beyond what can be removed by washing or claying alone. The only way to completely remove sintered (heat fused) ferrous iron particles is with a dedicated decontamination system that esearches for ferrous oxcide particulates. In one step, you can eliminate both the cause and its effects. Ongoing damage is immediately stopped and future damage is prevented by completely removing the ferrous particles.
CEE DOG said:
I only just started using both those products, but did the Iron X and Tar X treatment on my 335i and my wife's Altima recently and on both vehicles I still had to clay afterwards. The clay was still finding significant crap on the lower doors, rockers and behind the wheelwells. However our winters and road repairs are brutal around here so we just might be exposed to more contamination in the first place compared to other regions.