2 passes with M105/Wool, no luck...

iamwaxman said:
Since you've already got the M105 and the wool pad (plus plenty of others)...



Go ahead and try this:



1. Prime the pad THOROUGHLY.

Rub it in with your hand. It'll take a bit more than you're used to applying.



2. Apply a bead of M105 to the surface, pull it in, and polish at low speed (1000 rpm).

Try 2-3 passes, or until the M105 is just starting to dry.



3. Using a fine mist, spray the surface with water.

Do not add additional product- Just re-polish with what's already in the pad.



I think you'll see a 50% improvement in the cut, but you'll probably see an increase in swirling (it can be easily removed).



After trying this method (count it as one cycle), spur the wool pad (blow it clean with compressed air if you have it).



I won't PROMISE a better result, but I am pretty sure you're going to GET a better result.
Click to expand...



Interesting. Does this work for foam pads too (or maybe you were inferring it did, but this thread is about 105/wool, so I'm assuming that is what you were talking about) ?



I'm liking M105 with a polishing pad, but when it drys up I start getting really bad buffer hop (combined with my lack of experience with the rotary). I've also found that you have to have a CLEAN pad (ie. change every 2 panels), or else I get bad hop plus plenty of holograms.
 
I cant say better things about the procedure iamwaxman gave me!



Here is the hood after two "passes" using the new method..the specs you see is just lint from my MF.

IMG_4646.jpg




IMG_4647.jpg
 
Bigpoppa3346 said:
Interesting. Does this work for foam pads too (or maybe you were inferring it did, but this thread is about 105/wool, so I'm assuming that is what you were talking about)?
Click to expand...



While the misting of water will help the foam more rapidly remove defects, you're likely going to see a decrease in cycle-length (as compared to a no water), and an increase of stuck-on abrasive (to the pad itself).



With a wool pad, the application of water is not so much needed as lubrication, but it helps to loosen the abrasive from the wool fibers (allowing the abrasives to roll about freely between the pad and paint surface) It also helps the pad more easily contour to the paint surface (effectively increasing the surface-area of the pad per revolution).



With a foam pad, there are no fibers to twist, bend, and reshape (helping to loosen the abrasive). Further, the foam has lots of tiny pockets that the abrasive can enter and then attach to. Water seems to speed the onset of abrasive-clumping (not a good thing when final-polishing). The particles gather and fill the pad pores. A layer of flash-dried abrasive rapidly covers the pad, and will require major cleaning (water & soap, or a pad-cleaning machine).



I'm liking M105 with a polishing pad, but when it drys up I start getting really bad buffer hop (combined with my lack of experience with the rotary). I've also found that you have to have a CLEAN pad (ie. change every 2 panels), or else I get bad hop plus plenty of holograms.
Click to expand...



To avoid buffer hop and swirling, do exactly what you're doing- CLEAN the pad often.

Otherwise, the residue build-up on the pad's face can cause swirls- and pad hop! Once there's a micro layer of abrasive attached to the pad, (and devoid of lubrication), it's literally STUCK to the pad... It cannot swirl and roll about freely. So it drags across the paint, may grab & attach momentarily, then release (and on and on and on).



In a nutshell, a good procedure when using M105 with a foam pad for mild or final-polishing (rotary applied):



1. Prime the pad THOROUGHLY.

Rub it in with your hand. It'll take a bit more than you're used to applying. It takes quite a bit to load (more than a typical polish, as there's no petro-based oils or solvents to aid in spreading).

Take the extra time to completely cover the face and outer curved-edge of the pad. .



2. Apply a bead of M105 to the surface, pull it in, and polish at low speed (1000 rpm).

USING CONSISTENT MODERATE DOWNWARD PRESSURE, apply for 1-3 passes, or until the M105 is just starting to dry. Remove all residue. CHECK FOR HEATING OF THE PAINT. Most guys that polish with a rotary know how HOT the surface can get when using a finishing pad.



3. Turn the machine off. Nylon-brush the outer edge of the pad to remove the stuck-on abrasive. Reapply as needed to complete polishing. If you've got compressed air, blow the pad clean.



Occasionally, remove the pad, install it onto your orbital (if you have one). Press the pad into a microfiber towel, turn the machine on, and work the pad into that towel for approximately 10 seconds- It'll remove most of the moisture and abrasive from the pad, keeping it fresh, and free of contamination and saturation.





In my experience, M105 works best with a foam pad on when it's used on smooth paint (or paint that has been pre-polished with wool). A quick pre-wipe of the panel with M105 and a microfiber towel can really help out, too.

In only takes 10-20 seconds to do, so why not?



These cleaning procedure works for any liquid, really- It's so important to remove residue from the pad as you polish.

Abraded paint and spent particulate can really mess up an otherwise perfect polish job.
 
Scottwax said:
Cutting it with Optimum Polish (about 20%) dramatically will increase the polishing time too. I can get 2-3 minutes of polishing if needed out of that combo. Of course, water is free... ;)
Click to expand...



I have tried that, and OC, and you are right in that they can both add time as well.



I did find the cut slightly reduced, though, albeit not by much. (It might be over lubricating?)







As for Presidential's question, heh, it's honestly very hard to explain, but I'll try.



I start by very quickly spreading the product over the area I am going to work by applying it to the pad, and then using quick arm motions (ie: NOT high rotary speeds) covering the entire area I will buff.



Then I go back and slowly work the area in a methodical manner one time over. the key for this to work is to use the rotary at lower speeds, between 1,000 and 1,100~ RPMS. If you move quickly over an area that has M105 spread over it and do not actually stay long enough to buff it out, it can "glaze" it over, turning it incredibly hard and making it very difficult to remove with a towel OR the buffer with subsequent passes.



So again, the technique is a little bit tricky and takes practice, but it works.



Anyway, so then I go back over the area and make my passes slightly faster, as a medium arm speed using slightly less pressure than the first pass (normal pressure on pass 1).



At this point you will likely notice the product beginning to disappear from the paint surface, and you can sometimes go back for a third and final pass, using nothing but the weight of the machine for pressure. I work with medium to quick arm speed, and sometimes will quickly move the buffer side to side over spots where the M105 is still thick. (You will learn to spot when it gets "glazed" into place vs when it can be buffed off).



I continue doing that over the entire area and when done there is nothing but an extremely fine and thin film (if that) left at all on the paint.



Occasionally you may need to stop and add a spritz of distilled water at random points and "restart" the process to an extent, but the better you get at it the less this will be needed.



It is using this process that I have been able to finish out 100% with M105 only on *some* cars. Others require additional passes, but in some cases M105 will buff out LSP ready.



Here's some pictures of what the technique yielded when using a Makita with a 4 inch light orange polishing pad, M105, and nothing else. (I had the Jeep for 3 days and was able to leave it in the sun a LOT to make sure the defects were gone before applying any wax. I also re-washed it, and tested with alcohol wipes).





JeepPics043.jpg




JeepPics044.jpg




JeepPics039.jpg




JeepPics041.jpg




JeepPics034.jpg




JeepPics035.jpg
 
iamwaxman said:
Use caution when trying the water trick with a random-orbital or a forced rotation/orbital (such as the Flex)...



You may see an increase in cut, but there's a strong chance you'll encounter a bit of micro marring, as the abrasive might clump near the pad's edge.



Try it, but make dang sure to keep that edge CLEAN.



AND!- Watch the bleach-box scenario with that machine...

Once that water evaporates, the pad might hook up like a drag slick. :doh
Click to expand...



Good stuff, man, thank you very much. :bigups
 
weekendwarrior said:
Kevin "iamwaxman" is definitely "the man" when it comes to the Meguiar's products. He is correct with the chance of marring when using water or a QD with M105 on an orbital. You have to remember that these are non diminishing abraisives, but are all similar in size (following the unigrit idea). when they clump, since they do not diminish, you can get a plethora of different sized abraisive clumps on the pad, that do not evenly break down (since there is no breaking down of the abraisives) as the product is worked.
Click to expand...



More good stuff... thanks, weekendwarrior!



This has been a very educational thread.
 
Lumadar said:
Welcome to the world of proper M105 usage. It's a WONDERFUL world.



I actually have been that method (Found it out from trial and error, good to see Kevin uses it too apparently) and have been very pleased with it.



People need to remember that M105 doesn't play by the same rules as other compounds as it uses a new and unique non-diminishing abrasive. So, using a little logic one can find ways to get more time out of the product by keeping it wet, and therefor keeping it working.



There is also a way to buff M105 dry, or essentially completely off of the paint and if done properly it leaves a fantastic finish and virtually no removal of product is needed...but this requires a perfect blend of technique, weather, and cooperative finishes/pads. (and a rotary)
Click to expand...



This is what Greg Nichols and I do. We've both come to the conclusion that we get better results doing it this way than trying to either keep it wet or re-wet it to extend the working time. He taught me this method, actually. It's much easier to watch someone do it than to try and explain it on the forum.



The first time I saw him do it, I thought he'd spent too much time in the sun. Then he showed me the results... it really does work very well.
 
iamwaxman said:
While the misting of water will help the foam more rapidly remove defects, you're likely going to see a decrease in cycle-length (as compared to a no water), and an increase of stuck-on abrasive (to the pad itself).



With a wool pad, the application of water is not so much needed as lubrication, but it helps to loosen the abrasive from the wool fibers (allowing the abrasives to roll about freely between the pad and paint surface) It also helps the pad more easily contour to the paint surface (effectively increasing the surface-area of the pad per revolution).



With a foam pad, there are no fibers to twist, bend, and reshape (helping to loosen the abrasive). Further, the foam has lots of tiny pockets that the abrasive can enter and then attach to. Water seems to speed the onset of abrasive-clumping (not a good thing when final-polishing). The particles gather and fill the pad pores. A layer of flash-dried abrasive rapidly covers the pad, and will require major cleaning (water & soap, or a pad-cleaning machine).







To avoid buffer hop and swirling, do exactly what you're doing- CLEAN the pad often.

Otherwise, the residue build-up on the pad's face can cause swirls- and pad hop! Once there's a micro layer of abrasive attached to the pad, (and devoid of lubrication), it's literally STUCK to the pad... It cannot swirl and roll about freely. So it drags across the paint, may grab & attach momentarily, then release (and on and on and on).



In a nutshell, a good procedure when using M105 with a foam pad for mild or final-polishing (rotary applied):



1. Prime the pad THOROUGHLY.

Rub it in with your hand. It'll take a bit more than you're used to applying. It takes quite a bit to load (more than a typical polish, as there's no petro-based oils or solvents to aid in spreading).

Take the extra time to completely cover the face and outer curved-edge of the pad. .



2. Apply a bead of M105 to the surface, pull it in, and polish at low speed (1000 rpm).

USING CONSISTENT MODERATE DOWNWARD PRESSURE, apply for 1-3 passes, or until the M105 is just starting to dry. Remove all residue. CHECK FOR HEATING OF THE PAINT. Most guys that polish with a rotary know how HOT the surface can get when using a finishing pad.



3. Turn the machine off. Nylon-brush the outer edge of the pad to remove the stuck-on abrasive. Reapply as needed to complete polishing. If you've got compressed air, blow the pad clean.



Occasionally, remove the pad, install it onto your orbital (if you have one). Press the pad into a microfiber towel, turn the machine on, and work the pad into that towel for approximately 10 seconds- It'll remove most of the moisture and abrasive from the pad, keeping it fresh, and free of contamination and saturation.





In my experience, M105 works best with a foam pad on when it's used on smooth paint (or paint that has been pre-polished with wool). A quick pre-wipe of the panel with M105 and a microfiber towel can really help out, too.

In only takes 10-20 seconds to do, so why not?



These cleaning procedure works for any liquid, really- It's so important to remove residue from the pad as you polish.

Abraded paint and spent particulate can really mess up an otherwise perfect polish job.
Click to expand...



:wow:, great info! Thank you for the detailed response.



I'm bookmarking this thread for future reference. :waxing:
 
SuperBee364 said:
Yeah, for sure... your results look outstanding, btw. I bet the customer was thrilled!
Click to expand...



Oh its not over yet..haha! Customer picks up Sunday. That was only 2 passes with 105/wool, still gonna finish.
 
I've been using M105 with a yellow Meguiars Solo Wool Light Cutting Pad on my Makita BO6040 (in force rotation mode) at near full speed and working it until it is almost clear (about 30-40 seconds). I have been getting great correction and leaving a seriously smooth finish with that dry buff technique. The result looks much better than when using the recommended wet-buff technique. I have not had as good results using M105 on the rotary, but I'm sure that is due to my rudimentary rotary skills. I find it easier to use the BO6040 and feel a little bit safer.
 
Ok, got some updates for you guys..quick little teasers! :drool:



BEFORE:

IMG_4650.jpg




AFTER ONE PASS USING NEW METHOD:

IMG_4651.jpg




FRONT END COMPLETED M105/Burgandy Wool(new method) x2

Still going to go over it with a finishing polish..

IMG_4657.jpg




IMG_4659.jpg




IMG_4660.jpg
 
Wow Kevin, VERY IMPRESSIVE. I have have had experiences where M105 just doesn't cut, and usually swap to 3M Extra Cut Compound.



Now I will have to try the method you shared, THANK YOU VERY MUCH!!!
 
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