Wool, what am I missing?

[Todd@RUPES]

A finishing wool pad is pretty damn awesome for most paints. However you reach a point where wool cant get any softer and it can still marr soft black paint. Thats where foam can be good for final finishing.

I think its important to note that for the most part we are buffing on clear coat. I know this is kind of basic, but think about this...



Most manufacturer's use the same clear coat over different base coats, so the only difference in color is in the base coat. The clear coat remains the same. (Of course their are obvious exceptions, BMW's harder clear on Sapphire Black and the stupidly soft clear on Jet Black).



This makes brings me to my point... Since a black base coat reflects the most light thru the clear coat, you can see maximum defect levels. Black most accurately shows the condition of the clear coat above it. So if foam is needed to finish out the clear coat to perfection on a black car, then it is really needed on every car to achieve perfection.



Obviously the benefits of finishing out a black car more completely are much more dramatic then finishing out the same clear coat over a silver car. In the black car you might see a 10% improvement, where as on a silver car you may be lucky to see 2%, for the same time invested.



In my experience with wool, you can never get a car 100 percent perfect with it because the fibers will instill light marring in the paint surface (or more light marring then a foam pad, because under a high enough magnification, nothing is perfect). Since this type of marring can be seen to diffuse the paint on black, then it is also diffusing the light on other color's as well. To get the highest gloss we must level the paint as flat as possible to get maximum light reflection. This law is true for all colors, regardless wether we see the defects or not.



So the achieve true maximum gloss on silver, we have to polish out defects that we cannot even see.

 

[imported_DetailDan]

This makes brings me to my point... Since a black base coat reflects the most light thru the clear coat, you can see maximum defect levels. Black most accurately shows the condition of the clear coat above it. So if foam is needed to finish out the clear coat to perfection on a black car, then it is really needed on every car to achieve perfection.

Awesome point Todd. I have had this conversation with a few other people and I dont think they really got the idea. Great explanation. The finishing process should be similar even on light colored cars.

 

[WASHWAY]

In 1994 when we launched the Edge system, there were only two choices of foam basically. Yellow for cutting and Grey for polishing. We could not figure out why you would want to use the most abrasive pad for every job so we invented and launched a 5 colored texture foam line which was soon copied by all our competitors. When we decided to enter the wool pad business we saw the same dilema that the only pads offered were White 100% wool twisted for cutting and a Yellow Blended wool/acrylic for polishing. We then launched the first wool pad line to offer 5 colored textures and our wool matched our foam in color and texture. You want and need the ability to choose the right pad for the job without being forced to use the most abrasive pad. You actually want to start with the least abrasive combination of pad and chemical to see if you get the right results first before reaching for the more abrasive combo and removing more paint or causing damage.



Hope this little history helps.



Aaron

This is not an entirely true portrait of history. This maybe based off your experiences at the time. Several other companies had many, many more pads in wool and foam then what you stated. Buff and Shine, Lake Country, Schlegel, and 3M just to name a few. In foam, Buff and Shine and Lake Country had a variety of PPI (Pores Per Inch)options and colors available. In wool compounding you had 100% wool pads in 4ply twist to 1ply twist. For light compounding and heavy polishing there were wool blends from 4ply twist to a standard wool pads. Finishing pads were from wool blends to 100% wool and even sheep skin pads that had the hide visible on the backside. All these pads were also avaible in a variety of colors. The original purpose for having different colors in wool was so that in detail shops they could differentiate which pads, had which products on the pads.

I do agree not every paint is the same. Every car has been exposed to different environments and that should always be takin into consideration. There is always an extreme case or special circumstance, from cars with horrible paint to the garage kept show car that has never had anything other than a hand polish and waxing. For the "average" or "newer" car a compounding pad is not needed, since you are only polishing the clear coat and never make it to the actual paint. In that circumstance you would clay the car first then move to a pad like the Buff and Shine 7503GY (polishing pad) or 7510G (Finishing pad) depending on the condition of the clear after claying. Use these with a mild cleaner/polish. As with any pad keep the pad flat, lower rpms, and do not burn the pain with too much heat.

For those that have never used a Buff and Shine pad, I highly recommend it. They make their pads for the professional detail market and car wash market. 70-80% of their pads are private labeled and sold under other names. I can't say enough for their products.



Danny

 

[TortoiseAWD]

WASHWAY,



Please review our policies on commercial posting. Since you're a retailer of Buff-and-Shine pads, your post borders on our definition of spam.



Thanks,

Tort

(moderator)

 

[Bigpikle]

Since a black base coat reflects the most light thru the clear coat, you can see maximum defect levels. Black most accurately shows the condition of the clear coat above it. So if foam is needed to finish out the clear coat to perfection on a black car, then it is really needed on every car to achieve perfection.

great point Todd... I just spent 6 hours polishing my silver Saab, and am now kinda wishing I did another go around with a final finish polish as well, to get the imperfections I couldnt see :lol:



Oh well, next time

 

[Todd@RUPES]

great point Todd... I just spent 6 hours polishing my silver Saab, and am now kinda wishing I did another go around with a final finish polish as well, to get the imperfections I couldnt see :lol:



Oh well, next time

Thanks.... and sorry :brit

 

[Mindflux]

I ended up ordering 6" Wool in Yellow/Green/Blue/White (Ultrafine) from Edge.



I was eyeing the Optimum line of products for polishing but found a few threads that pooh-poohed that with Wool.



Maybe my local PB&E jobber has some Presta 1500 and UCC.

 

[imported_Picus]

Sometimes I find Todd and I disagree about certain products and processes, but on this point I agree with him 100%. I always finish with foam.



In fact, I almost always cut with foam too. I guess I am one of the weird holdouts. I will cut with wool (aggressively), but in most cases I find foam has a better cut:finish ratio for me.

 

[Accumulator]

..So the achieve true maximum gloss on silver, we have to polish out defects that we cannot even see...

Oh so true :xyxthumbs



People think that's crazy talk, but two identical-paint "perfect" silver cars can look completely different. I've learned that "just one more light burnishing" is seldom a waste of time, no matter how unnecessary it might seem.

 

[SuperBee364]

I ended up ordering 6" Wool in Yellow/Green/Blue/White (Ultrafine) from Edge.



I was eyeing the Optimum line of products for polishing but found a few threads that pooh-poohed that with Wool.



Maybe my local PB&E jobber has some Presta 1500 and UCC.

The Menzerna line works *really* well with wool. Optimum Compound (not the Hyper compound) works very well with wool, and has a long working time. It does have a tendency to leave some pretty good compounding haze, though. HTEC also works well with wool, especially if you add a couple drops of OC to it to extend the working time.



My favorites with wool:



Heavy Hitter: Black (or yellow) wool with Menz PG. Serious correction, and not much compounding haze. It really finishes down very well for such a high degree of correction. IMO, it finishes down much better than OC does. I'm hoping this combo is gonna be replaced by M105... just haven't used it yet. Somewhere I have a link to a post on detailingworld where Dave KG was able to finish Menz PG down to an LSP ready finish. That's how good Dave and MPG are.



Medium correction: LC purple foamed wool with SIP. SIP can be a bit tricky sometimes, but adding a few drops of PO106FF will make it play nicely. SIP does play nicer with the green and blue LC pads than the purple foamed wool. You'll get better correction with the purple foamed, but if you don't need the extra cut, the green or blue edge is definitely easier to use with SIP than the purple foamed. Make sure you spur the pad after every application of SIP.



Finishing: Depends on the clear coat hardness. Really hard clears finish down *very* nicely with the white wool and PO106FF. Medium clears finish nicely with the white wool and regular old FPII. Soft clears, you pretty much have to finish with a foam finishing pad, wool just won't leave a satisfactory look. Generally, you can improve the look after using wool to finish with a really fine finishing polish (like PO85RD) and a foam finishing pad, but so far it's been a mixed bag for me; some cars it makes a tremendous difference on, some I wish I hadn't wasted the time doing another step after the white wool.

 

[Mindflux]

My favorites with wool:



Heavy Hitter: Black (or yellow) wool with Menz PG. Serious correction, and not much compounding haze. It really finishes down very well for such a high degree of correction. IMO, it finishes down much better than OC does. I'm hoping this combo is gonna be replaced by M105... just haven't used it yet. Somewhere I have a link to a post on detailingworld where Dave KG was able to finish Menz PG down to an LSP ready finish. That's how good Dave and MPG are.



Medium correction: LC purple foamed wool with SIP. SIP can be a bit tricky sometimes, but adding a few drops of PO106FF will make it play nicely. SIP does play nicer with the green and blue LC pads than the purple foamed wool. You'll get better correction with the purple foamed, but if you don't need the extra cut, the green or blue edge is definitely easier to use with SIP than the purple foamed. Make sure you spur the pad after every application of SIP.



Finishing: Depends on the clear coat hardness. Really hard clears finish down *very* nicely with the white wool and PO106FF. Medium clears finish nicely with the white wool and regular old FPII. Soft clears, you pretty much have to finish with a foam finishing pad, wool just won't leave a satisfactory look. Generally, you can improve the look after using wool to finish with a really fine finishing polish (like PO85RD) and a foam finishing pad, but so far it's been a mixed bag for me; some cars it makes a tremendous difference on, some I wish I hadn't wasted the time doing another step after the white wool.

Thanks Bee. Right now I've still got Menzerna IP and FP from ~2003 era. I'm going to use these up first. Though I need something for some heavier scratches, since it seems IP is good for 2000 grit. I'll see about picking up some Prima 1500 locally if I can.



Anything worse then 1500 grit is going to have to wait.



As for foam I have Yellow/Orange/White/Black 2003 era foam. CMA velcro backing logos on them. I'm not sure who made the pads back then. The Menz polishes always worked pretty dang well with the foam I have.. just looking to improve.

 

[imported_Denzil]

The Menzerna line works *really* well with wool. Optimum Compound (not the Hyper compound) works very well with wool, and has a long working time. It does have a tendency to leave some pretty good compounding haze, though. HTEC also works well with wool, especially if you add a couple drops of OC to it to extend the working time.



My favorites with wool:



Heavy Hitter: Black (or yellow) wool with Menz PG. Serious correction, and not much compounding haze. It really finishes down very well for such a high degree of correction. IMO, it finishes down much better than OC does. I'm hoping this combo is gonna be replaced by M105... just haven't used it yet. Somewhere I have a link to a post on detailingworld where Dave KG was able to finish Menz PG down to an LSP ready finish. That's how good Dave and MPG are.



Medium correction: LC purple foamed wool with SIP. SIP can be a bit tricky sometimes, but adding a few drops of PO106FF will make it play nicely. SIP does play nicer with the green and blue LC pads than the purple foamed wool. You'll get better correction with the purple foamed, but if you don't need the extra cut, the green or blue edge is definitely easier to use with SIP than the purple foamed. Make sure you spur the pad after every application of SIP.



Finishing: Depends on the clear coat hardness. Really hard clears finish down *very* nicely with the white wool and PO106FF. Medium clears finish nicely with the white wool and regular old FPII. Soft clears, you pretty much have to finish with a foam finishing pad, wool just won't leave a satisfactory look. Generally, you can improve the look after using wool to finish with a really fine finishing polish (like PO85RD) and a foam finishing pad, but so far it's been a mixed bag for me; some cars it makes a tremendous difference on, some I wish I hadn't wasted the time doing another step after the white wool.

Nice post Supe! This is actually the kind of post I was looking for. I'm curious though, has anyone been able to 1-step (lightly swirled vehicle) with the LC purple foamed wool pad and OP or OPS?



I was actually thinking of doing that to my Integra but I'm kind of hesitant seeing that that combo may be too harsh for the soft Acura/Honda paint. What do you all think? Should I just go with a normal foam polishing pad? I want to see if anyone has tried this yet before I do it myself, hehe.

 

[SpoiledMan]

IP and purple foamed wool does superb on Honda clear.

 

[imported_Denzil]

SpoiledMan, thanks for the heads up. While I don't have IP, I do have SIP! We'll see how that goes...

 

[SuperBee364]

Nice post Supe! This is actually the kind of post I was looking for. I'm curious though, has anyone been able to 1-step (lightly swirled vehicle) with the LC purple foamed wool pad and OP or OPS?



I was actually thinking of doing that to my Integra but I'm kind of hesitant seeing that that combo may be too harsh for the soft Acura/Honda paint. What do you all think? Should I just go with a normal foam polishing pad? I want to see if anyone has tried this yet before I do it myself, hehe.

Not with any of the Optimum polishes, but I have single-stepped cars with SIP/purple foamed wool, and also with 106ff and purple foamed wool. Weird combo, I know, but it worked well.



Honda paint corrects very well with SIP and purple foamed, but you'll definitely want to finish with a foam finishing pad and a gentle polish like FPIII. Sometimes 106ff will get grabby on soft clears and not leave a very good finish. I'd go right to a black LC foam finishing pad and FPII after correcting with SIP and purple foamed. Honda clear is so soft that even FPII on a finishing pad will get out whatever holos and haze the SIP/purple foamed left behind.

 

[Scottwax]

Sometimes I find Todd and I disagree about certain products and processes, but on this point I agree with him 100%. I always finish with foam.



In fact, I almost always cut with foam too. I guess I am one of the weird holdouts. I will cut with wool (aggressively), but in most cases I find foam has a better cut:finish ratio for me.

Same here. I only use wool if absolutely necessary and always finish with foam. I find that the Meguiars 8006 polishing pad and #105 will take care of most defects. Sometimes I do have to pull out a wool pad though, they work significantly better than foam cutting pads for me.

 

[Scottwax]

IP and purple foamed wool does superb on Honda clear.

#105 mixed with Optimum Compound with a Meguiars 8006 foam polishing pad and 1000 rpms works great too. Very minimal holograms too.

 

[imported_Denzil]

#105 mixed with Optimum Compound with a Meguiars 8006 foam polishing pad and 1000 rpms works great too. Very minimal holograms too.

Sweet, that's also something I will try out, except with a Propel polishing pad. :grinno:



Man, I feel like I have so many polishes now that I have to test them all with the LC purple now... actually, I probably will do that just so that my curiosity doesn't kill me over. :waxing:

 

[Mindflux]

Just remember that #105 isn't a diminishing abrasive. It'll stay a constant cut the whole time until you break it down.

 

[imported_Denzil]

Just remember that #105 isn't a diminishing abrasive. It'll stay a constant cut the whole time until you break it down.

Yeah, that was my concern with 105 on soft clears. I figured I wouldn't even bother using 105 on the Teg due to that fact.



I'll probably do it anyway as a test section when I find the time to test all my polishes on my LC purples and perhaps post some sort of personal review/comparison on my Teg.