Wool, what am I missing?
- Thread starter Mindflux
- Start date
Todd@RUPES
Just a regular guy
I have a question...
Wool seems to cut quicker (i.e., it only take 45 seconds or so for SIP to breakdown on a purple foamed wool) than foam. I wonder what makes wool "seem" to break down the abrasives faster then a comparable foam pad.
I still haven't really tried any of the Edge Wool pads (except the System One style, which I heard is equal to the black wool)...
Wool seems to cut quicker (i.e., it only take 45 seconds or so for SIP to breakdown on a purple foamed wool) than foam. I wonder what makes wool "seem" to break down the abrasives faster then a comparable foam pad.
I still haven't really tried any of the Edge Wool pads (except the System One style, which I heard is equal to the black wool)...
kkjv1 said:
Based upon the numerous threads I have read on here, traditionally, a wool pad will leave less marring than the equivalent foam pad. The exception may be when it comes to jeweling the paint as TH0001 was described on here using Ultrafina SE and as SuperBee has described when using Menzerna's lightest abrasive polish. I cannot remember what that polish is called at the moment.
SuperBee364
New member
Bigpikle said:
Bigpikle, wool pads are so easy to use they make a hack like me look good. I really can't stress enough the advantage of having them run so much cooler on the paint. There is a very false assumption that's running rampant around these parts. That being that heat is necessary to correct paint. That is absolutely false. The cutting action of an abrasive on the clear coat is what is necessary, and unfortunately, heat is a byproduct of that action. However, keeping that heat down to an absolute minimum is very desirable. Wool (since it has such a tremendous amount of surface area compared to foam) has much more cutting area in any given square inch of surface, allowing quicker cutting action with less heat (from less pressure needed for a given amount of cutting action).
kkjv1 said:
I wish I could answer that one.... I haven't done enough white finishing wool/ultrafina polishing yet to give a qualified answer. Can't wait to do it, though. Using my old favorite Menzerna PO106FF, I have never had a hologram problem with the white wool. The lubrication of the PO106FF *really* makes the white wool finish better than what you would think a wool pad could. I'm hoping that Ultrafina will lube the wool as well to get similar results. PO106FF and white finishing wool is a deadly combination, for sure. Gets out compound marks fast and just glows afterward. There's some pictures of my old yellow superbee finished with this combo that (to toot my own horn
) look very nice.TH0001 said:
Todd, it's my understanding that the reason for this is the *huge* amount of surface area you have on a wool pad compared to a foam pad. The foam pad doesn't have *alot* more surface area than the actual circle it's comprised of. Yeah, there's some additional surface area from the foam cell structure, but nothing like those individual fibers of wool all added up. Spreading the heat over that much surface area keeps you running cool, too.
bert31 said:
PO85RD... NOT PO85RD 3.01 or 3.02.
bert31 said:
That's pretty much true, but I do have to hang a qualifier on that. Todd mentions that wool's very structure can lend it to introducing micromarring on the paint. Well, the same thing can be said for foam, as well, it's just that the foam can be made so *much* softer, that good lube eliminates this from being a problem. Menzerna PO106FF lubes the white wool almost to the same extent; you can get a *really* nice finish with that combo. However, I haven't used enough finishing polishes to just give a blanket statement of "white finishing wool rocks with any finishing polish". And it is true that you can get a (sometimes very noticeable) better finish with a foam finishing pad if you're willing to spend the time to do it. Edit: I kinda got off track on that question... Yes, IMO, the white edge finishing wool kicks major butt on the white LC light polishing foam pad.
Long story short... Wool will correct faster than foam. It's safer to use than foam. It *has the potential* to finish out very well. For the absolute best finish you can get, it's hard to beat a foam finishing pad. This is all, of course, just my opinion.
this is one of the most interesting threads i have read for a long time - I had assumed that all wool pads were going to give MUCH higher levels of cut than foam pads, so were to be used by experienced users, with caution and to eliminate severe defects only :wall
Now, can somebody please help me work out which pad system etc I need? I already have a 3M backing plate, so are hook and loop systems worthwhile or is it better to use pads like the S2000 system or other options?
I would really want less aggressive options for light to medium swirling, using polish like MarkV Mystique, which I am getting on with pretty well so far
Now, can somebody please help me work out which pad system etc I need? I already have a 3M backing plate, so are hook and loop systems worthwhile or is it better to use pads like the S2000 system or other options?
I would really want less aggressive options for light to medium swirling, using polish like MarkV Mystique, which I am getting on with pretty well so far
A light cutting wool pad cuts similar to a light cutting foam pad.Bigpikle said:
As the cutting foam pads often dig in and can create holograms then a wool pad of similar cut is actually safer.
A finishing wool pad is pretty damn awesome for most paints. However you reach a point where wool cant get any softer and it can still marr soft black paint. Thats where foam can be good for final finishing.
The best system for hook and loop is without a doubt the Meguiars solo pads. 7inch is an awesome size and it uses wool for cutting and foam for finishing. Pretty much the only system that uses the correct material for the job.Bigpikle said:
I find that i can often finish with less hologramming using the light cut wool compared to a polishing foam that has half the cut. Cuts more and finishs better.
If you plan on doing a lot of cars then moving to the Edge 2000 system is definitely a good option. I reccomend getting the smaller 6inch pads for the cutting and then 8inch wool for finishing. If you do atleast one car a month then the Edge 2000 system would be the way to go. The edge pads last longer and are cheaper considering they are double sides so in the long run the large change over cost will pay for itself after a dozen cars.
TTWAGN - thanks for the great advice. Megs UK is just up the road from me, so may well head up there and pick some stuff up 
It sounds like they might be a good way into the wool method, with lower initial cost, and i dont do a big volume of cars, so probably no big drawbacks.
so with a light cut wool, and a polish like Mystique/3.02/Megs 83, can you give me some tips on speed and number of passes? I would normally be running at 1800-2000rpm max speed during cutting and doing about 10 passes for max correction, before slowing down and refining for a couple of passes.
How does the technique for these wool pads differ - sounds like probably a lot fewer passes are required to get the correction?
many thanks
It sounds like they might be a good way into the wool method, with lower initial cost, and i dont do a big volume of cars, so probably no big drawbacks.so with a light cut wool, and a polish like Mystique/3.02/Megs 83, can you give me some tips on speed and number of passes? I would normally be running at 1800-2000rpm max speed during cutting and doing about 10 passes for max correction, before slowing down and refining for a couple of passes.
How does the technique for these wool pads differ - sounds like probably a lot fewer passes are required to get the correction?
many thanks
SuperBee364
New member
TTWAGN said:
As Bigpikle and others have mentioned, there is another Urban Legend around these parts: "Wool is for serious correcting work, and only to be used in the hands of skilled rotary professionals".
Not to beat the proverbial dead horse, but again, *wool is generally safer to use than it's foam counterpart*. If you have both a light cut foam pad and a light cut wool pad, try this quick test... Polish out a panel using the foam pad, and as soon as you're done, touch the paint. It's probably *quite* warm. Now do the same exact polishing with a wool pad. Touch the paint. It's probably not much warmer than ambient conditions. Now consider this on *plastic* painted surfaces like bumpers. Wool is soooooooo much safer on these types of surfaces, not to mention the fact that wool won't instantly damage trim on accidental contact like foam will.
SuperBee364
New member
Bigpikle said:TTWAGN - thanks for the great advice. Megs UK is just up the road from me, so may well head up there and pick some stuff up
so with a light cut wool, and a polish like Mystique/3.02/Megs 83, can you give me some tips on speed and number of passes? I would normally be running at 1800-2000rpm max speed during cutting and doing about 10 passes for max correction, before slowing down and refining for a couple of passes.
How does the technique for these wool pads differ - sounds like probably a lot fewer passes are required to get the correction?
many thanks
Bigpikle, you're running a bit fast, *especially* if you're using foam. At those speeds, a foam pad will heat up to dangerous levels *fast*. The only time I would ever come close to approaching 2k RPM is with a wool pad, and only if I was correcting extremely hard paint. My normal max speed is 1500 rpm. It is very unusual that I can't get something done at 1500 or less. And I also use six inch pads. Running 2k rpms with larger pads is even more dangerous. 1k rpm is my absolute upper speed limit when using foam on any plastic painted surface.
Remember that wool will break your polish down faster than foam. You won't need to do nearly as many passes with wool as with foam. In fact, it's pretty important that you keep that in mind. Your polish will dry up faster with wool, and you'll end up dry buffing if you're not careful. Also, use more polish with wool than you do with foam. I can't think of any correcting polish out there that would survive ten passes with a wool pad. It's better to stop buffing early than go too far. A *very general* rule of thumb would be 1k-1.5k rpm, 30 seconds working time for compounds and medium polishes. About four passes. That doesn't sound like much working time, I know, but it should give you a good starting point. If your polish still has some life to it after that much time, go ahead and work it some more. Just don't overwork it. Using SIP as my mainstay medium polish, I will occasionally get four passes out of it, but normally only three.
If you're using the 1Z High Gloss polish for finishing, the process is the same for it with wool as with foam: 1k rpm (max. slower is better) and work it til it disappears.
If you are having problems with your polish "flashing over" (getting hard and being difficult to remove), you are working with too many rpm's, and overworking the polish.
Thanks Superbee :2thumbs:
very useful posts. I am still experimenting with various polishes, pads and speeds. I learned the basics from the regulars on DW, where it seems 1800-2000rpm is the typical speed used for max cut. I have already started experimenting with slower speeds with mixed results so far, but am continuing to learn
Really quite fancy some of the light cut and foamed wool pads, but they are hard to get in the UK it seems....
very useful posts. I am still experimenting with various polishes, pads and speeds. I learned the basics from the regulars on DW, where it seems 1800-2000rpm is the typical speed used for max cut. I have already started experimenting with slower speeds with mixed results so far, but am continuing to learn
Really quite fancy some of the light cut and foamed wool pads, but they are hard to get in the UK it seems....
This is something i am very interested in. Like damon (bigpikle), i was led to belive that wool was only for really bad defects on very hard paint types like ceramiclear paint types, but after reading this thread, i want to try them out.
I am hoping to go full time into detailing soon and any product that saves me time is a real bonus. Its also true that some of the harder pads dont follow the contours of the panels as well as a wool pad would, but over here in the uk, very few people use wool, especially compared to over in the us.
One thing that i used to wonder about was when i read details by american detailers on DW, it seamed that they often started on wool pads and then a couple of different types of foam. This always struck me as odd, in that i thought that doing it this way it would take forever to machine a car. However, after reading superbee's comments and how he says it takes less than a minute to do the work with a wool pad, im begining to see the light and really want to try out some wool pads. Either the edge or lc ones would do, or even both.
Would someone be able to let me know where i can get them from? It has to be somewhere that ships to the uk. Cheers. Hi everyone by the way.
I am hoping to go full time into detailing soon and any product that saves me time is a real bonus. Its also true that some of the harder pads dont follow the contours of the panels as well as a wool pad would, but over here in the uk, very few people use wool, especially compared to over in the us.
One thing that i used to wonder about was when i read details by american detailers on DW, it seamed that they often started on wool pads and then a couple of different types of foam. This always struck me as odd, in that i thought that doing it this way it would take forever to machine a car. However, after reading superbee's comments and how he says it takes less than a minute to do the work with a wool pad, im begining to see the light and really want to try out some wool pads. Either the edge or lc ones would do, or even both.
Would someone be able to let me know where i can get them from? It has to be somewhere that ships to the uk. Cheers. Hi everyone by the way.
SuperBee364
New member
Is the new Meguairs So1o line of pads available in the UK yet? They've been getting really good reviews so far. Their process is more along the lines of conventional usage of pads; wool to correct, foam to finish.
charlesaferg
New member
SuperBee364 said:
I apologize for the correction, but PO87MC - FPII is the least abrasive from Menzerna, not by much though.
I see them as the same, I only distinguish between the type of paint I'm working with. (New, Single, Aged, Oxidized, or Cerami-clear etc...
SuperBee364
New member
You're right, Charlesferg.
I was refering to the "least abrassive" as the one that I had used in reference to another post he was asking about. PO85RD was the least abrassive of the ones I had used in that post... not the least abrassive that Menz makes.
I was refering to the "least abrassive" as the one that I had used in reference to another post he was asking about. PO85RD was the least abrassive of the ones I had used in that post... not the least abrassive that Menz makes.
SuperBee364
New member
mose said:
I've heard that some people have used the purple foamed wool pads successfully on good strong DA's like the Flex, but I haven't ever tried it.
Hopefully, someone that has will chime in...
Todd@RUPES
Just a regular guy
TTWAGN said:
I think its important to note that for the most part we are buffing on clear coat. I know this is kind of basic, but think about this...
Most manufacturer's use the same clear coat over different base coats, so the only difference in color is in the base coat. The clear coat remains the same. (Of course their are obvious exceptions, BMW's harder clear on Sapphire Black and the stupidly soft clear on Jet Black).
This makes brings me to my point... Since a black base coat reflects the most light thru the clear coat, you can see maximum defect levels. Black most accurately shows the condition of the clear coat above it. So if foam is needed to finish out the clear coat to perfection on a black car, then it is really needed on every car to achieve perfection.
Obviously the benefits of finishing out a black car more completely are much more dramatic then finishing out the same clear coat over a silver car. In the black car you might see a 10% improvement, where as on a silver car you may be lucky to see 2%, for the same time invested.
In my experience with wool, you can never get a car 100 percent perfect with it because the fibers will instill light marring in the paint surface (or more light marring then a foam pad, because under a high enough magnification, nothing is perfect). Since this type of marring can be seen to diffuse the paint on black, then it is also diffusing the light on other color's as well. To get the highest gloss we must level the paint as flat as possible to get maximum light reflection. This law is true for all colors, regardless wether we see the defects or not.