Why is this happening..

[solekeeper]

Guys, I'm going to make it short.



I'm at a body shop and we're sanding down cars with 2000 after painting etc.



To correct, I'm using 3M's Perfect-It 3000 I beleive (Brown colored) with a wool pad.



For step 2, I hit it with a foam pad and m105.



Here is the problem, after the m105 I ALWAYS take the car out in the sun to inspect my work. I have been watching closely to make sure I'am not seeing things... and apparently I'm not. After the m105, and a look in the sun the paint is about 90 percent corrected. I look very thorough...



Now, I typically untape the car, wash it, and then apply my 3M Ultrafina Swirl Remover. (I DO NOT, wash the area's that I corrected, NOTHING touches it except water)



Here's the kick, after the water touches it, it seems almost 40 percent of micro-scratches have come back.. This has happened several times. I watched it over and over...



Any idea why this is happening?

 

[RaskyR1]

Guys, I'm going to make it short.



I'm at a body shop and we're sanding down cars with 2000 after painting etc.



To correct, I'm using 3M's Perfect-It 3000 I beleive (Brown colored) with a wool pad.



For step 2, I hit it with a foam pad and m105.



Here is the problem, after the m105 I ALWAYS take the car out in the sun to inspect my work. I have been watching closely to make sure I'am not seeing things... and apparently I'm not. After the m105, and a look in the sun the paint is about 90 percent corrected. I look very thorough...



Now, I typically untape the car, wash it, and then apply my 3M Ultrafina Swirl Remover. (I DO NOT, wash the area's that I corrected, NOTHING touches it except water)



Here's the kick, after the water touches it, it seems almost 40 percent of micro-scratches have come back.. This has happened several times. I watched it over and over...



Any idea why this is happening?

You need another step after M105 and the foam. M205 would work well for this. Follow that up with UF and it should look great! UF is not aggressive enough to remove the swirls left behind by M105.





Also, check which compound your using. The perfect it 3000 should be white. You may have the Perfect-it II line.

 

[Accumulator]

solekeeper- IMO the water is washing away some kind of concealing agents, such as oils from the M105 (I'm assuming you're not doing anything that might reinstill the marring).



Wonder how it'd look if you did an IPA(or better yet, PrepWash) wipedown after the M105 :think: Or at least thoroughly wash it as opposed to just using water. Inspecting it *then* might reveal something informative.



Also, it might be too big a jump, going from M105/[unknown pad] combo to the Ultrafina.

 

[DLB_1]

solekeeper- IMO the water is washing away some kind of concealing agents, such as oils from the M105 (I'm assuming you're not doing anything that might reinstill the marring).



Wonder how it'd look if you did an IPA(or better yet, PrepWash) wipedown after the M105 :think: Or at least thoroughly wash it as opposed to just using water. Inspecting it *then* might reveal something informative.

I agree. How do you know that the M105 is taking the finish down to 90% correct if you don't get it off the surface. M105 will leave oils/residue behind. Make sure it is stripped, then inspect. I bet you find that you need another step between it and Ultrafina.



DLB

 

[solekeeper]

Accumulator, your theory certainly seems right about the water washing away sealants and what not. I have not, and nor do I do wipedowns after my steps.. How do I do this? What would be a good quick material to use? (Please keep in mind it is a body shop) so I do need something quick. thanks~

 

[imported_WhyteWizard]

One thing you can do that will speed you up considerably is soak the paper you're going to use overnight.



Products from different manufactures often don't play well together, they are designed to be parts of a specific system. Pick a side. I'd suggest you try something without so much filler.



Robert

 

[Accumulator]

I agree. How do you know that the M105 is taking the finish down to 90% correct if you don't get it off the surface...

Actually, I just use the M105 to do the "heavy" correction and I don't worry about whether it's concealing anything as anything light enough to be concealed will come out with the subsequent steps. So I've quit IAPing/PrepWashing after M105.



But I do my last M105 passes with a not-too-aggressive pad too.

Accumulator, your theory certainly seems right about the water washing away sealants and what not. I have not, and nor do I do wipedowns after my steps.. How do I do this? What would be a good quick material to use? (Please keep in mind it is a body shop) so I do need something quick. thanks~

With either IPA (rubbing alcohol) or TOL's PrepWash (great stuff IMO), I just use a sprayer to spritz it on the panel, let it dwell for a while, and wipe it off *GENTLY* with a soft plush MF before it evaporates. I'll often repeat this several times; you can usually see a "rainbow" effect in the IPA/PrepWash while it's dwelling, that's the oils rising up out/off of the paint. When you no longer get that, and the panels are squeaky clean, then you should have clean/bare paint to inspect.



Both IPA and PrepWash are bodyshop safe.



And I'd inspect with something good, like a SunGun, in an otherwise dark environment.



Note that I'm not a fanatic about the need to do wipedowns the way many people here are. But when you have an issue like this one, it can be a possible solution.

 

[solekeeper]

Cool. Ok, so suppose I didn't want to wipe it down.



Is there anyway to stop the compound from I guess I can say (wash away)?



I mean there has to be a certain point in which it won't die-back on me?



Do you think maybe two passes instead of one could clear this up?

 

[Accumulator]

Cool. Ok, so suppose I didn't want to wipe it down.



Is there anyway to stop the compound from I guess I can say (wash away)?



I mean there has to be a certain point in which it won't die-back on me?



Do you think maybe two passes instead of one could clear this up?

In this situation, where you *know* that concealing (of some kind) is an issue, I don't see any reliable way around the wipedowns.



MAYBE another pass will remove the marring in question. But maybe it won't. Maybe you need a whole 'nother/different step in the process to solve the problem.



Just no way to know unless you get a clear view of the situation and IMO, in this case, that means doing what you need to do to ensure that nothing's slipping by unnoticed (i.e., do the wipedowns to clean off any concealing agents).



I sorta suspect you need something more aggressive after the PI-3000, and *then* your current M105 step.



I'm assuming (uh-oh ) that the micromarring in question is worse than the almost invisible hazing that M105/foam leaves.

 

[solekeeper]

Guess I will try and do the wipedowns. I also have an old hood at the shop, think I'm going to paint it black, sand it, and that can be my test dummy. :woot:



Any input on the tuf-buf wool pad I've been hearing about Accumulator?

 

[Accumulator]

Any input on the tuf-buf wool pad I've been hearing about Accumulator?

Nah, never tried it :nixweiss But it's recommended by some people whose advice is always good, so if you're doing that sort of correction I'd give it a try.

 

[RaskyR1]

You really need a middle step after M105. The IPA wipe downs will help you see the remaining buffer swirls left behind, but at the end of the day UF is still not going to remove them. I suggest either using M205 or 3M Perfect-it 3000 Swirl Remover on a foam polishing or finishing pad prior to using the UF.





Rasky

 

[Darrenpriest]

Finish with M205; I love it and is user friendly. I finish using this and a finishing foam pad.

 

[solekeeper]

K, thanks accumulator for your help!



Does the M205 provide any cut at all?



Wonder if I could just start straight from m105, then go to m205?

 

[RaskyR1]

K, thanks accumulator for your help!



Does the M205 provide any cut at all?



Wonder if I could just start straight from m105, then go to m205?

M205 has the ability to cut a LOT more than UF, yet I can finish down very well, especially on refinished paints IMO! :2thumbs:



When I wet sand and buff a car (I've done several) my process is usually as follows...

• M105 on Megs Solo wool cutting pad or W5000
  
• M105 on orange LC or Megs W7207
  
• M205 on black LC or Megs W9207
  
• PO85RD or Ultrafina on a blue or red LC.
  

Some paints however will finish down very well with M205 and won't need to be followed up. Some also react well with DA polishers too, which can help with hologram removal. I was able to do this GT500 in a 3 step using just M105 and M205.



M105 on rotary with W5000 wool pad.

M105 on PCXP speed 6 and orange LC

M205 on PCXP speed 6 and black LC pad



This is after an IPA wipe down with no LSP





All sanded...

All buffed out

Hope this helps,

Rasky

 

[Accumulator]

Does the M205 provide any cut at all?



Wonder if I could just start straight from m105, then go to m205?

What RaskyR1 said :xyxthumbs



With the right pad M205 can sometimes do a surprising amount of correction for a "finishing polish".



And the M105-to-M205 progression is exactly how the products were designed to be used.

 

[Darrenpriest]

Impressive RaskyR1; lots of work! I agree with the thinking. This is the same basic steps I follow. I did this to my older GMC denali and came out amazing: Paint Color Sanding shown by the car detailing expert Not a completer tutorial, but you can get the idea. And no, I am looking to hear the back seat commentaries from everyone disecting every step I did or didn't take. Let me just say, the results of colorsanding and polishing is nothing short of amazing when done correctly; wait, that is exactly waht I did...

 

[solekeeper]

Rasky, that car came out flawless.



I think I will be buying m205 in the coming days.



Any input on the Tuf-Buf black wool pad? I was thinking of using this with the m105.



Would this be heavy enough combo to cut out those sand scratches from the getco?

 

[RaskyR1]

Rasky, that car came out flawless.



I think I will be buying m205 in the coming days.



Any input on the Tuf-Buf black wool pad? I was thinking of using this with the m105.



Would this be heavy enough combo to cut out those sand scratches from the getco?

Thanks!





I've not yet tried the Tuf-Buf pads, but I think they would do the job depending on the type of clear used and how long it's been curing. I do like that you can get them in various pad sizes too. :2thumbs:

I always finish down with 3000 grit so it's pretty simple to remove the sanding scratches at that point and really saves on the buffing time.





Here are a few other wet sanding job I did if your interested.

Full Wet Sanding of 2005 Acura RL in Nighthawk Black Pearl to Reduce Orange Peel. – Detailed Image



1966 Corvette Sting Ray 427 Gets Wet Sanded and Buffed to Perfection – Detailed Image



http://www.autopia.org/forum/pro-de...austin-healey-3000-mkii-mini-restoration.html



Rasky

 

[solekeeper]

Nice!!!!!





Do you have any experience with Menzerna Polishes?

Do they have the same amount of fillers as the Meguiars?