Why are we here?

Status
Not open for further replies.
What is your point?

Jared
I am sure wax can stand alone, but my point is why is a sealant needed in the
first place. If that is the case than why not put the sealant over the wax?
 
Todd

Thank you for your statement. I have been on other forums where the moderator cuts you off . If I liked Zanio,or some other wax product I feel
there would be no big deal. Although,if wax was doing the job,why?,is there
such a interest in sealant products used alone with wax?

I am doing a black SUV on Sat. It is 3 years old, and has never had wax or a sealant applied to it. I am not going to use any correction on it. I will
take before and after pics. I will wash it with Dawn, use a clay bar, and
apply one coat of AT-5. You on the forum can judge for yourself if I am
right or wrong about AT-5.
 
[I am sure wax can stand alone, but my point is why is a sealant needed in the first place. If that is the case than why not put the sealant over the wax? ]

Wax and Glaze ?Set-up?

Carnauba in today's wax formulas functions mostly as a carrier; it?s used to keep the polymers and oils on your car's surface. When applied to a surface will not adhere properly on its own, solvents and miscible oils are added to enable it to spread evenly to the surface.

Natural and synthetic wax and glazes initially adhere by surface tension; the balance of the adherence process is that it works its way via the carrier system (solvent and / or oils) and the polymers into the microscopic gaps and a valley of the paint film surface, or in the case of a wax over a polymer sealant- the ploymers form a bond, thereby creating a mechanical anchor, a wax doesn?t form a true covalent (molecular) bond to the surface, this is due to its limited polymer content.

An organic wax or glaze cures i.e. form a hard shell over the surface, they are time, temperature and humidity dependent; after sufficient drying times do a quick swipe test with your finger, if no smearing or drag is evident; the residue is ready to be removed.

Bonding

Carnauba, an organic wax; will bond to a cross-linked polymer, conversely if a polymer is applied on top of Carnauba wax the cross-linking / bonding may be compromised.

Although I would not state categorically that a product that is formulated with oils will abort the cross linking or bonding process of a polymer just that the process may not be as complete, and its strength and durability maybe affected. (See also Cross-linking and Adherence)

A non-organic wax or glaze is usually formulated with polymers that form a bond with the paint surface or the polymers in a wax. This bond is not as strong as the molecular bond formed by a polymer sealant

Organic waxes initially adhere by surface tension; the balance of the adherence process is that it works its way via the carrier system (solvent and / or oils) into the microscopic gaps and valleys of the paint film surface thereby creating a mechanical anchor. An organic wax, unlike a polymer, has no chemical interaction (molecular bonding) with paint.

[If wax is so great then why do you need a basecoat as a sealant?]

Why use a wax on top of a polymer sealant?

Some detailers find that a polymer sealant tends have a flat, silvered mirror look. Adding a Carnauba wax to the surface provides depth of shine, gloss, jetting (the so called ?wet look?) and a warmth to the paint surfaces overall look. Bear in mind that how a paint surface ?looks? is very subjective and tends to invoke an emotional reaction rather than a logical one 95% of an applied wax comprises out gassed solvent that is wiped away, whereas 65% of a polymer sealant that is applied remains.

Detailers who prepare show cars will often layer a Carnauba wax on top of a synthetic wax; the synthetic wax acts as a gloss layer, while the carnauba wax adds depth and a wet-looking (jetting) appearance

Polymer sealants
Need a porous surface to bond to, they initially adhere by surface tension and then after a period in which the solvents /oils in the carrier system vaporize (outgas) the polymers cross-link to form a covalent (molecular) bond to the surface. This process usually requires 12-24 hours, which are time and temperature and / or humidity dependent.

Note that drying and curing are two different processes. Drying generally refers to evaporation of the solvent or thinner, whereas curing (cross-linking) refers to polymerization of the binder, which imparts adhesion, binds the pigments together, and strongly influences such properties as gloss potential, exterior durability, flexibility, and toughness.

The majority (70%) of a polymer matrix cross-linking cycle occurs within 30 ? 45 minutes of its initial wipe-on application drying; however it is recommended that a period of 12 - 24 hours is allowed for the cross-linking process to complete, otherwise polymerization and durability may be compromised. Although it should be noted that surface oils or silicone and / or moisture introduced before the cross-linking process is complete will interfere with the bonding of a polymer and will negatively affect its durability

When polymer chains are linked together extensively by chemical cross linking - the formation of covalent bonds between chains; the polymer is harder and more difficult to melt. Curing is required to allow the monomers (polymer building blocks) to attach to the surface and to polymerize into a crystal-clear, impervious film.

It is very important to allow polymers to cure for 12-24 hours after the haze has been wiped off. If the coating is exposed to contamination such as oil, rain, water, cleaners, etc. before it has cross-linked, the contaminants may interfere with the film, preventing the polymer from achieving its maximum performance and durability. A polymer, unlike wax forms a molecular bond with paint once it?s had enough time to cross-linking.

A unique aspect of polyurethane chemistry is that the hydrogen bonding acts as an additional crosslink, but also allows thermoplastic flow, which helps the paint surface to retain its elasticity and its tensile strength to relieve mechanical stress. The basic structure of a polyurethane clear coat features a soft segment (polyol or tetramethylene ether) which gives it flexibility and elasticity. There is also a hard segment (polymerization) that has high urethane density, which gives the coating hardness and tensile strength

Carnauba wax

Carnauba in today's wax formulas functions mostly as a carrier; it?s used to keep the polymers and oils on your car's surface. Only a small portion of your vehicle's shine comes from the wax itself. Carnauba is translucent at best with only minimal light reflection. It is among the hardest of natural waxes, being harder than concrete in its pure form

This sacrificial barrier is all that stands between the environmental contaminants and the paint film surface and this renewable barrier is probably less than 0.1 ? (100 nm, 0.000 4 Mils or 0.000 004 inch) thick. An applied paint protection product is the barrier that provides protection for automotive paintwork besides the clear coat paint.

An organic wax also provides a sacrificial surface that will resist acid (salt brine, bird excrement, acidic rain, etc) better than a polymer, which forms a molecular bond with the paint, whereas a an organic wax forms a semi-hard protective shell (although it lacks durability of a polymer) Each time you wash you remove the top portion of the wax, along with any environmental contaminants.


Extracts from a series of unbiased Detailing Technical Papers, a library of educational materials that has become the #1 reference for car care on the Internet

Chances are you'll learn something about detailing if you read any of these; although these articles will not improve your detailing skills, lead to a successful business or change your life. Applying what you learn from it, however, will. That's where your commitment comes in - you need to make a commitment to yourself right now that you will take action on what you learn.


? TOGWT ? Ltd Copyright 2002-2010, all rights reserved
 
It appears that AT-5 is made and sold by GEM Industries, the company that invented the large orbital buffer. They still sell them and they're used in car detailing and countertop refinishing.

GEM sells a few chemicals including a compound, the pre cleaner mentioned, a wax with Teflon in it, and some fragrances. Does not look like anything special in their product line. Pretty much the same stuff sold by Auto Wax, Ardex, Pro/BAF, etc.

Teflon in car care products was debunked years ago. Acrylic polymers are old skool technology, developed in the 1970s. Both have been eclipsed by newer polymer technologies.

As for the 5 year claim, GEM states it is "lab tested", but they do not provide lab results or any method to verify the claim. Since this industry is unregulated, anyone can make a claim about any product without repercussions. Typical detailing industry hype.
 
I am doing a black SUV on Sat. It is 3 years old, and has never had wax or a sealant applied to it. I am not going to use any correction on it. I will
take before and after pics. I will wash it with Dawn, use a clay bar, and
apply one coat of AT-5. You on the forum can judge for yourself if I am
right or wrong about AT-5.

Fair enough - please make sure you get some photos from the (as close to possible) exact same angles, before and after as well as some in direct sunlight so we can all make as fair an assumption as can be made by looking at photos over the internet. Basically, no photo trickery - shady photos, completely different before and afters, etc. I'm interested to see the photos, as I asked you for some the last time we had this (exact same) conversation on another forum.

I'm very curious to see the after photos regarding paint surface flaws and how well this sealant hides them. If there's quite a bit of filling going on, I'd be really surprised if the sealant lasts any time at all. Any time I've used something with lots of filling/hiding characteristics, it tends to not last very long (most times until the vehicle is washed or rained on).
 
Bret Fraz
I have one question for you. Have you ever used AT-5? If you have not,
you sure know alot about it. I can pull a few facts of the internet to, and
I can base an opinion also.

I can tell that this product has been tested by NASA, and several major
airlines. I personally applied this product on 2 737-800 in 2005 in Houston
Tx, and it was tested for one year. They found it reduced their fuel costs by
1 percent. That is fact.

I am not making a dime off this, and sometimes I really wonder why I should
waste my time to convince people who believe that a $1,000 wax is worth
it Although, know one I have seen on this forum has thought that was crazy.
Until, you try and use AT-5 then what is your opinion worth?
 
Jared
I was willing to do that, but Troy shut me off the site before I had a chance
to do it. I will be glad to do what you asked, but I cannot control the sun.
 
Bret Fraz
I have one question for you. Have you ever used AT-5? If you have not,
you sure know alot about it. I can pull a few facts of the internet to, and
I can base an opinion also.

I can tell that this product has been tested by NASA, and several major
airlines. I personally applied this product on 2 737-800 in 2005 in Houston
Tx, and it was tested for one year. They found it reduced their fuel costs by
1 percent. That is fact.

I am not making a dime off this, and sometimes I really wonder why I should
waste my time to convince people who believe that a $1,000 wax is worth
it Although, know one I have seen on this forum has thought that was crazy.
Until, you try and use AT-5 then what is your opinion worth?

And how can you offer your opinion on car wax that you haven't used since 1970?

Also if you these are going to be the tones of your posts, then you may be better off 'wasting your time' convincing people who are less knowledgable and have less experience then you.

So far you have not established any crediablity, you have pumped a product, and you have taken cheap shots on products you have admit to knowing nothing about. It's not really the best first impression.

Nobody doubts that you believe in this product, but if you if your stance is going to be that you are right and we have to answer to that, then their may be better forums, with less knowledgable people, for you to post on.
 
Jared
I was willing to do that, but Troy shut me off the site before I had a chance
to do it. I will be glad to do what you asked, but I cannot control the sun.

They make halogen lighting or portable "sun guns" (spotlights). That would be a good substitute for before and after photos lighting.
 
Bret Fraz
I have one question for you. Have you ever used AT-5? If you have not,
you sure know alot about it. I can pull a few facts of the internet to, and
I can base an opinion also.

I can tell that this product has been tested by NASA, and several major
airlines. I personally applied this product on 2 737-800 in 2005 in Houston
Tx, and it was tested for one year. They found it reduced their fuel costs by
1 percent. That is fact.

I am not making a dime off this, and sometimes I really wonder why I should
waste my time to convince people who believe that a $1,000 wax is worth
it Although, know one I have seen on this forum has thought that was crazy.
Until, you try and use AT-5 then what is your opinion worth?

Bill, you and I finally agree on a point... I think a $1000 wax is crazy. That's just me though. Someone is buying it, or they'd quit making it.

Regarding trying your sealant - are you willing to send out samples to anyone and let them try it? So that we can make our own conclusions? I'm not saying I'm interested personally, but I'd pony up and send you some sample wax or sealant to let you try in return.

Also, how was it proven that using this sealant reduced an airlines fuel costs by one percent. There's so many variables in that assumption that it's ludicrous to even make it.
 
Todd

As I said before, I have worked in detail shops where they have used waxes
bought from professional vendors since the 70's. Although, you keep going
back to the point that I am judging waxes with no experience. I have read TOWGT's posts very closely, and he seems to have a vast amount of knowledge of waxes chemical properties.From what he says waxes do
not truly bond to a surface, no or little UV protection, but they produce a great shine. Okay, so what else do I need to know. They cost between $5.00
and $1,000, so what am I not understanding?

I am sorry for my last post to BretFrag for being a little testy. I am not
asking any one to buy AT-5, but just keep an open mind to what I am
trying to share with everyone . The reason I have continued to use this product for so many years is because it works, and have not found any reason to use other products. If you are happy with what you are using
or your method is right for you,then ignore what I am saying. I am not
trying to trash wax, but only point out certain things about it. Fair enough!
 
Todd

As I said before, I have worked in detail shops where they have used waxes
bought from professional vendors since the 70's. Although, you keep going
back to the point that I am judging waxes with no experience. I have read TOWGT's posts very closely, and he seems to have a vast amount of knowledge of waxes chemical properties.From what he says waxes do
not truly bond to a surface, no or little UV protection, but they produce a great shine. Okay, so what else do I need to know. They cost between $5.00
and $1,000, so what am I not understanding?

I am sorry for my last post to BretFrag for being a little testy. I am not
asking any one to buy AT-5, but just keep an open mind to what I am
trying to share with everyone . The reason I have continued to use this product for so many years is because it works, and have not found any reason to use other products. If you are happy with what you are using
or your method is right for you,then ignore what I am saying. I am not
trying to trash wax, but only point out certain things about it. Fair enough!


I have never even heard of this AT-5 stuff and I really do not care to hear about it either.

If you like it and it works for you then thats great, but I think its time to give it a rest already.
 
Jared
The 737-800 is linked to the airlines headquarters for each fight . They kept
this info and after the year they compared it with past data. I was told this
by the guy who paid me to help him apply it for the airplanes. It is now used on American Airlines jets because it works on Alum.

I have no problem sending out samples, but I am not a charity. If you are
willing to cover the shipping cost, then I will send out a few.
 
Nick
Are you speaking for the forum. No one is asking you to read my posts,
so if you are not interested. It is very simple , do'nt click on them, or
get involved and start a new subject.
 
Nick
Are you speaking for the forum. No one is asking you to read my posts,
so if you are not interested. It is very simple , do'nt click on them, or
get involved and start a new subject.



I do not think this topic will be around much longer for me to comment on anyways.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top