What's the deal with Dawn?

[detailforfun]

K.I.S.S. the right way always makes life easier.:nixweiss

 

[imported_memnuts]

Keeps it nice and simple.



Has anybody thought about using car wash soap to do the dishes? Let's see you get that one past the wife....

Simplicity is just why a Dawn wash was recommended. :xyxthumbs



In a pinch a car soap without carnuaba would work fine to use for hand washing dishes. The science is the same. Soaps are Long-chain fatty acids. The marketing definitely different.



I would be more upset than my wife. "You are using my expensive car wash to clean what!!!??"

 

[doostin]

here is how i "protect" my car,



1. dawn.

2. forget clay, i use play-dough

3. dawn again.

4. deoderant for the interior(i suggest clear gel, anything else leaves a residue)

5. for protection i use a mango scented candle, it takes some time to get the wax to rub in to the paint, but boy is it worth it!

6. dawn...again.



Dustin

 

[imported_memnuts]

here is how i "protect" my car,



1. dawn.

2. forget clay, i use play-dough

3. dawn again.

4. deoderant for the interior(i suggest clear gel, anything else leaves a residue)

5. for protection i use a mango scented candle, it takes some time to get the wax to rub in to the paint, but boy is it worth it!

6. dawn...again.



Dustin

You have come to the right place to read and learn.



1ST CLASS:



ALL SOAPS have these elements in common



Surfactants perform the important functions in cleaning, such as loosening, emulsifying (dispersing in water) and holding soil in suspension until it can be rinsed away. Surfactants can also provide alkalinity, which is useful in removing acidic soils.

It is amazing how the scientist that actually produce these product use the natural tendency of production to augment the function and multiplicity of such.





Soaps are water-soluble sodium or potassium salts of fatty acids. Soaps are made from fats and oils, or their fatty acids, by treating them chemically with a strong alkali which is buffered to desired pH of final product.



Fats and Oils



The fats and oils used in soapmaking come from animal or plant sources. Each fat or oil is made up of a distinctive mixture of several different triglycerides.



In a triglyceride molecule, three fatty acid molecules are attached to one molecule of glycerine. There are many types of triglycerides; each type consists of its own particular combination of fatty acids.



Fatty acids are the components of fats and oils that are used in making all soaps.

 

[doostin]

learn?



I'm here to teach!

hah, im kidding, i've only recently started to enjoy a properly maintained paint job! who would of known turtle wax wasn't the ony wax out there? hahah! no one on this board will ever be able to take me serious. hah.



Dustin

 

[imported_memnuts]

Dustin I realized that you were kidding. That's why I put the after learn.



I am just trying to illustrate the science behind some of our choices and possible errors in analysizing and reaching conclusions without this data.



Nice BMW :xyxthumbs

 

[detailforfun]

learn?



I'm here to teach!

hah, im kidding, i've only recently started to enjoy a properly maintained paint job! who would of known turtle wax wasn't the ony wax out there? hahah! no one on this board will ever be able to take me serious. hah.



Dustin

Heeeheeee, small world, Dustin, hehehhe small world...



I used to work in Santa Barbara and lived in Ventura....heheheeh

what's wrong with learning and teaching the real things at the same time heheheheheeh I love Autopia!!!

Is it your dad's or your mom's car, btw? heheheheeh

 

[Mr. Chemist]

It appears we are confusing soaps, with detergents...their chemistries are completely different, although they share some basic cleaning characteristics, such as emulsification.



Soaps are the result of saponification of fatty acids, generally with an alkali such as sodium hydroxide. Some examples of this are bar soaps and if any body can remember, laundry soap flakes.



Detergents on the other hand are complex surfactants that are created from fatty alcohols reacted with acids. These complex cleaning molecules can be very sophisticated depending upon the feed stock and builders. The molecules generally have a hydrophobic and a hydrophilic "end" which alternately are water loving and water hating. The soils are broken down and attach themselves to the water hating end of the molecule...and remain in suspension because the other end is water loving. And away goes trouble down the drain.



Moderns liquid chemistry relies primarily on detergent and surfactant technology. Soaps are rarely used.



The fantastic thing about this type of chemistry is that it can be engineered to specific soils....i.e., organic grease...in the case of Dawn.



The whole thing is a lot more complicated than this…but suffice it to say…modern car wash formulations are automotive soil specific.



Bugs are good example.

 

[doostin]

Is it your dad's or your mom's car, btw? heheheheeh

too small.



its my moms car, mine is the lambo! m3's are for women! hah.



seriously though, its the banks car for a couple more months.



And I am definitely here to learn, all I've ever known and used was zaino. I've only been looking on this board for a couple days and I already want to try a whole bunch of stuff!



Dustin

 

[imported_memnuts]

No confusion.



"Soap is an anionic surfactant. Other anionic as well as nonionic surfactants are the main ingredients in today's detergents."



The surfactant I mentioned in my previous post is the detergent chemistry you are refering to. The soap discussion was a chem 101 means in which to explain the basic surfactant interactions between "dirt", surface tension changes, and general structure of a cleaning agent. Both soaps and detergents use the same MOA (Mechanism Of Action) by creating dipoles of hydrophilic and hydrophobic affinities.

Yes, the profound chemistry of detergents is beyond this thread, but I would love to sit down with you and discuss automotive applied chemistry. So I will keep pumping your first hand experiences and knowledge of such.

This is how we all learn and for me, and I hope others, expand our knowledge base. This is what separates humans from other forms of life. We ask why and still question the answer.

Mr Chemist :xyxthumbs

 

[Mr. Chemist]

Yup...that about sums it up. The confusion I was concerned about was not yours, but rather....



-----Moderns liquid chemistry relies primarily on detergent and surfactant technology. Soaps are rarely used.-------



so when people are using a car wash...it is generally a synthetic detergnet.



Nice dialogue...

 

[imported_memnuts]

Nice dialogue...

Likewise!!! :bow



Enjoy reading your insider insight and technical data re-enforcing such. A definite aid when trying to decide when, what and why to use a certain product while detailing. :xyxthumbs

 

[Steve @ Guru]

Steve-good points, but concerning #3...maybe Dawn is gentle enough to use on baby ducks but it is strong enough to remove the crude oil stuck in their feathers!

I realize I'm a bit late in my reply, but I agree with the fact thad Dawn can remove crude oil from feathers... thankfully, cured, base/cleared paint doesn't have these magical oils that need to be "fed" and otherwise cared for (ahh, marketing hype at its finest). Therefore, I've never understood why everyone gets sooo worked up over using Dawn once or twice per year on their car... are we to believe it's better to use a solvent or alcohol? Why are those any more safe than a mild detergent?



Again, wash your hands with Dawn, then wash your hands with Naptha or Xylene or IPA. Wait a few minutes and let me know which one sucks the oils from your hands.



I think there's way too big of a deal being made over Dawn and its "harshness." As little as 5 years ago, I had a Dawn bottle that showed a car on the back and said, "Great for automobiles!" (or something like that) As DK pointed out in his post, labels can change at the drop of a hat...



I've used *very* strong Dawn solutions to wash our test panels for the better part of 3.5 years now - we're talking multiple washes at a time, followed by solvents, followed by Dawn, multiple times per year. Is the paint falling off of them? Nope. Is the paint being damaged by the Dawn? Under a 10x loupe, I'd have to say "not so far as I can tell."



Are there better products out there to use for washing your car? Certainly. Is Dawn going to ruin your car if you use it once or twice a year? Absolutely not. Should you use Dawn as a regular part of your detailing regimen? Nope. Would I use Dawn with regular washing? Nope. I just don't feel it's the evil villain that it's being made out to be.

 

[Mr. Chemist]

Evil villain????



No...I don't recall the evil villain thread but then I'm new here...



You know...I'm going to be openly biased here...I mean I do formulate car washes...so, guess what I'm going to suggest you use. Duh....

 

[DETAILKING]

Another example that comes to mind is WHEELS. Most cars come with wheels that are painted and clearcoated just like the rest of th car, but people will grab wheel cleaners that are VERY HARSH acids and BASES without even thinking. Ever get EFHI on your hands? It is a strong base and you can feel the layers of your skin being slipped away as you rub your fingers together. Now these may be clearcoat safe, but you can't go tell me DAWN is HARSH and BAD for paint compared to these....



I agree that one would think auto wash products were designed with the auto in mind, but there are so many crap products out there with bogus hype on the bottles (misleading ingredients and claims), I can see how one would be skeptical. A lot of us use dawn in a bind because it is a wash that will do a better job of stripping the car of oil / carnuba than other autowashes that are fomulated to add protection or be mild on the finish. I would much rather use dawn than an abrasive cleaner on my finish and score my clearcoat into a permeable medium.

 

[Steve @ Guru]

Another example that comes to mind is WHEELS. Most cars come with wheels that are painted and clearcoated just like the rest of th car, but people will grab wheel cleaners that are VERY HARSH acids and BASES without even thinking.

Exactly my point. And how much of those cleaners wind up as overspray on your paint, and how long do they sit there before you get around to washing that area - 3 minutes? 5 minutes? 10 minutes? (Provided that you wash in the 'correct' order of tires/wheels/car (top-to-bottom))

I would much rather use dawn than an abrasive cleaner on my finish and score my clearcoat into a permeable medium.

Another great point. Dawn is "bad" to use once a year, yet we happily reach for polishes, cleaners and waxes that contain abrasives (be they mechanical like kayolin clay or chemical in nature) and scrub our paint...



And if it's the seals and trim that we're worried about, why do we put petroleum-based products, which are known to accelerate certain types of wear/damage, all over our trim and rubber parts? Certainly a single Dawn wash can't be as bad for your trim as is slathering it with a solvent-laden dressing every other week...



Don't get me wrong - I'm not advocating Dawn for every single wash, or even 3-4 times a year... but to use it once, twice a year? I'll take Dawn over an unnecessarily harsh solvent or abrasive any day...

 

[BillNorth]

I don't believe Dawn to be bad, I just view it as a waste of time. If I'm going to do a full bi-yearly detail on my car then I'll use a regular car wash, clay, and chemical cleaner like AIO to give my paint a good cleaning. I don't see the need for dawn anywhere in that process.



I dunno... :nixweiss



Bill. :up

 

[Scottwax]

Just playing devil's advocate here Steve....



Lava hand soap is safe for your skin but I wouldn't want that grainy stuff on my car paint! :lol



I don't see any real harm in using Dawn once or twice but it sees a lot of people here pick up bits and pieces here and there from detailing forums on other boards and the Dawn wash becomes a ritual to start every single detailing session. That I don't understand.

 

[shaf]

For real? I use EO car wash, but because my vehicle is parked outside under pine trees, I sometimes use it stronger than 1 cap/1 gal. Maybe even up to double-strength, sometimes. This could completely strip my SG?

Somehow I doubt it.... I haven't tested this, but I just doubt it given the toughness of Klasse.



The only time I've ever used dish detergent on a car was to see if it would strip Klasse... which it didn't. Mixed in pretty strong solution too, because the water was actually tinted in the bucket.





Very interesting and informative thread! :xyxthumbs

 

[imported_memnuts]

Looks like we have killed this detailing fallacy. :bounce

Thanks for the input from both sides of the discussion. A great example of discussions we use to have all the time a few years back. :bow