TURBO-CHARGE or SUPER-CHARGE?!?!?

[splattj]

Cool, good point. I am not all that familiar with the japanese tuning scene, so have a few questions:



-Do people who turbo or supercharge an NA generally go stand alone, piggyback or just get chips? I think I heard that AEM makes pretty much plug-and-play stand alones for Hondas and such for only a little over a grand. If I could get something like that for a grand for my car I'd be all over it.



-How much do a set of pistons and/or rods cost for your car to lower the compression to 9:1 or so? I'd think you'd be able to run quite a bit of boost and with a moderately sized turbo not have much lag.



-What would it cost to get a turbo, injectors (I assume), intercooler, exhaust and other required bits and pieces for one of your cars?



thanks,

Ben Z.

- The nice thing about many of the supercharger kits is that they'll put out very consistant amounts of air and therefore can be packaged with a reprogrammed ECU or a chip that doesn't really require tuning. If you're going with a homemade setup you'll need a piggyback like an SAFC or a stand-alone. The stand-alones are just over a grand but tuning them on a dyno can cost you that much again. Most true stand-alones don't just start-up and run like the car just rolled out of the factory. A lot of time and tweaking is involved.



- You can get a set of rods and pistons for a 4cyl car for about $1000. But the machine shop work will approach that much again including things like a new head-gasket, head studs, main bearings, and assembly of the engine. Then there's the labor of R&Ring the engine. A built engine including labor, parts, and services will run around $5,000 if you pay someone else to do everything. The compression ratio you want will depend on how much boost you're looking to run. Adding boost essentially raises the effective compression ratio. If you're going to get a big, slow spooling turbo that you want to run 30+psi with, a 7.5:1-8.0:1 compression ratio will be what you're looking at. If you want to run a smaller, faster spooling turbo at 15 psi, 8.5:1-9.5:1 would be more appropriate. Also keep in mind that a low compression engine will have less power when it's not under boost. So from idle-3500 (or more with a huge turbo!) you'll feel pretty gutless. The good news is once you're going you keep shifting near redline and you'll stay in the power.



- As far as turbo kits go, a well thought-out, single turbo kit often approaches $4000. A home-brew kit can be had for around $1500-$2500. Thanks to knock-off products ranging from turbos to intercoolers quality of these products varies wildy. A shiny, stainless steel tubular turbo header can be had off ebay for $250. When you get it, you'll find out the tube walls are way too thin and after vibration and heat cycles the manifold will crack and fall off your car! Supercharger kits usually start out at about the same price as turbo kits.



If you have any more questions, feel free to PM me.

 

[NavindraLR]

Low 12's, eh?



What are you mods besides the goodies you just got in? Headers, exhaust, CAI, ?



I assume it's handling is amazing.



Me, I prefer turbos. Look at my avatar. There's just something about that spooling that makes me grin.

beside the mods i got, once spring hits, im buying the following:





BM-45121 B&M Precision Sport Shifter 185.00 1/17/2005



EXE-OCFC Exedy Organic Clutch and Flywheel Kit 690.00 1/17/2005



NOL-011-014-046 Nology Hot Wires: Blue 188.00 1/17/2005



CRO-B-93738B-4 Crower Billet Rods: K20 789.00 1/17/2005



ING-93000 Ingalls Engine Damper 145.00 1/17/2005



CRO-84164 Crower Valve Springs & Titanium Retainers 439.00 1/17/2005



CRO-63451-2 Crower Stage 1 Cams 776.00 1/17/2005



HD-NPECU Hondata K-Pro: New ECU 1595.00 2/11/2005

Color-Silver

Hondata Sticker Color-Blue

Serial Number-2068

Hondata Intake Gasket-Yes 65.00

VIN Number-1234567890

Include K-Pro DVD-Yes 30.00





JDM LSD



should be good for low 12's

 

[NavindraLR]

Thats tru well i am gonna have to really research on it! Nice mods by the way!!! U have to meet up with me sometime i wanna hear that exhaust!! Got any ideas for wheels yet!??!

yup.. just ordered my rims today

5 Zigen 18" Bronze

 

[NavindraLR]

low 12's NA.? In a 4 banger Honda?



I mean I got Honda reliability and an 11 sec car, there just not at the same time. No seriously my Cobra is as reliable as it gets. Its not only a daily driver, its my work car, 100 miles a day in town.



I love the Roots SuperCharger. You get all you power instantly down low. Turbo cars are Fast. But the lag diffinately shows against Roots type blowers more so than maybe Centrifical blowers.

not bashing.. but just a funny quote that relates to what u said



"god created turbo lag to give v8's a chance"

 

[splattj]

From what I can find on the Acura boards, the best NA time I could find that was verified with timeslips was a 13.5. There's one guy running a 12.8 with 8psi from a turbo kit but that's not NA, now is it?



I'd say your mod list will put you solidly in the 13s unless you're shaving 600lbs off the car somehow...

I'm not looking to start anything here. Your mod list looks very well thought out and the RSXs are a blast to drive but I just don't think you should set your expectations too high.



I'd love for you to come back in the spring and revive this thread with a pic of your low 12 timeslip. Most importantly, have fun with your car.

 

[vick-e]

i doubt shaving 600 pounds can get you down to 12s, its like 100 pounds off will give you .1 of a second off your time its something like that.





edit : lol o wait i just read that you said they are already in the 13s

 

[hftw Audi 6]

Ok well as it stands right now i am liking the Jackson supercharger! As far as that being my only mod thats a no no lol i think people are thinkin i am just gonna like charge it and put a muffler on! nope! lol i plan on doing this late summer if at all after i do more basic mods. I just figured i would start a thread now cause i have to do some serious research!!!



Navindra- Your car is gonna be hot!!! And by the way that quote is to funny!! lol, Ohhh yea and cool idea with the bronze should look pretty cool i am gonna go with black i think, cause then i wanna spray the taillights (trasparent black) and get black backing headlights..yep yep :up

 

[hirosh]

not bashing.. but just a funny quote that relates to what u said



"god created turbo lag to give v8's a chance"

a chance to what? not blow away your turbo 4-banger too badly.



so as to not start any arguements, i think the import/4-banger scene has really made vast improvements in the last 10 years. 10 years ago when i was racing on the streets (now i realize how stupid that was), pretty much the only mods imports could do were air filter, mufflers, and suspension. oh, having fog lights and plenty decals on the side also made your car faster. gee am i showing my age. you were lucky if your car came with a turbo and you could find parts for it. nowadays they have a whole new industry that ranges from the simple bolt-ons to whole engine blocks!



so to each their own, whatever route you choose. just make sure you keep your ride nice and clean, swirl-free. not to mention keep that side up! :wavey

 

[hftw Audi 6]

hirosh- u bet as an autpian i vow never to have a swirled or oxidized car!!! lol Hey and take it easy on the four bangers i know a couple people that have hondas puttin 800 to the ground!!

 

[Prometheus]

Another thing you have to remember, once you start pushing 11 and 12:1 compression, you cant run regular gas very well. Anything above 10:1 most manufactueres recommend using at least midgrade fuel, and I believe at 11.5:1 most recommend using premium. Just something else to consider.

 

[stilez]

Kenny:



I have noticed a few things after reading through this thread...



1) You really need to pay attention in English class buddy. This grammar thing is killing you :rofl



2) It seems you are VERY new at all of this. I have been in the scene for 3 years and still have plenty to learn about performance. There are a lot of factors that go into turbo/super charging. I wish I could say it would be fine to just bolt on a kit and be done, but then you have to worry about fuel, tuning, larger exhaust diameters, etc. It's a LOT of money and time. Also, with all of this, you have to worry about reliability. My car is definatley as not as reliable as it should be, but it comes with the territory. With that said,





In all honesty, in your position right now...I would say scrap the Jap cars. I love em and I drive one, but if you want this serious power, you are looking in the wrong area. For my money (around 30k), in your shoes, a leftover '04 Mustang Cobra would be my purchase. Yes they are marked over 30k, but with the 05's coming in, they must get them off the lot. The 06 Cobra's are due out in a few months. It still handles great and while you may not grab me in the corners in it, you will sure as hell accelerate way past me in the straights. Another thing you have to think of is how strict the cops are about going over the speed limit. Long Island is almost over populated with "po po". I modded my car for track use and I have never tracked it, so only get to enjoy my suspension on off/on ramps, quiet windy roads, and a few other situations. It sucks, but I have to deal with it. Power is something you can use a lot if you are careful.



Anyways, we're talking 390 hp out of the box. With a few MINOR bolt ons, you have a low 11 second car. It's been done and proven in stang magazines. The car is an absolute trip. My dad has one and while it's not quite up to the Jap quality, it's not bad and is certainly WAY more powerful.





Give it some thought.

 

[hirosh]

hirosh- u bet as an autpian i vow never to have a swirled or oxidized car!!! lol Hey and take it easy on the four bangers i know a couple people that have hondas puttin 800 to the ground!!

kenny, don't worry, i'm not bashing 4-bangers/imports. like the early hot rods, they have gone from the backyard mechanics to a huge industry today. i guess you could call them today's hot rods. :xyxthumbs the import scene has made some great strides in the past ten years, and that's a good thing.



if i could, i wouldn't mind building up one, say a civic hatchback with an engine swap and set up for some road racing. or maybe a hachi-roku or 240sx. or a mazda3, focus SVT, nissan se-r spec-v....but it costs money which i'd rather put into my mach1 and detailing supplies.



but anyways, there has been some good advice given here, like the ones by vick-e. tuning is very important. also don't forget the supporting parts: clutch, trans, axles, suspension, tires. it don't mean sh*t if you can't put the power to the ground. i especially like sean's advice in getting a 04 cobra, but that's just me.

 

[vdog0531]

Kenny:



I have noticed a few things after reading through this thread...



1) You really need to pay attention in English class buddy. This grammar thing is killing you :rofl



2) It seems you are VERY new at all of this. I have been in the scene for 3 years and still have plenty to learn about performance. There are a lot of factors that go into turbo/super charging. I wish I could say it would be fine to just bolt on a kit and be done, but then you have to worry about fuel, tuning, larger exhaust diameters, etc. It's a LOT of money and time. Also, with all of this, you have to worry about reliability. My car is definatley as not as reliable as it should be, but it comes with the territory. With that said,





In all honesty, in your position right now...I would say scrap the Jap cars. I love em and I drive one, but if you want this serious power, you are looking in the wrong area. For my money (around 30k), in your shoes, a leftover '04 Mustang Cobra would be my purchase. Yes they are marked over 30k, but with the 05's coming in, they must get them off the lot. The 06 Cobra's are due out in a few months. It still handles great and while you may not grab me in the corners in it, you will sure as hell accelerate way past me in the straights. Another thing you have to think of is how strict the cops are about going over the speed limit. Long Island is almost over populated with "po po". I modded my car for track use and I have never tracked it, so only get to enjoy my suspension on off/on ramps, quiet windy roads, and a few other situations. It sucks, but I have to deal with it. Power is something you can use a lot if you are careful.



Anyways, we're talking 390 hp out of the box. With a few MINOR bolt ons, you have a low 11 second car. It's been done and proven in stang magazines. The car is an absolute trip. My dad has one and while it's not quite up to the Jap quality, it's not bad and is certainly WAY more powerful.





Give it some thought.

pulley and exhaust.. easy twelves on a street tires. sean is correct!



Vernon

 

[1 Clean WS6]

How did a thread talking about the merits of turbo charging versus supercharging become a thread about the merits of a tuned 4 cylinder versus a V8?? :nixweiss



Since it has...here is my 2 cents on the matter:



Yes...a V8 built to run fast and lay prodigious amounts of torque to the ground will indeed "suck gas". On the flip side of that coin...a 4 cylinder motor built to the hilt and running 20+ pounds of boost will suck just as much gas. Do you have any idea how much fuel that motor needs to run at that kind of pressure and those rpm's?? When you aren't "in the boost" you will indeed get better fuel economy but when you aren't "in the throttle" with a V8 you can get just as much economy. My 400+ rwhp WS6 can average 25+ miles per gallon when cruising on the highway in sixth gear loafing at about 1,800rpm.



The Japanese import tuner deal is a blessing in my eyes...and that is coming from someone who owns three American vehicles. It has a whole other generation of folks interested in wrenching on cars and making them better than the factory delivered. I don't care if it is a darn Yugo someone is modding...as long as it keeps the hobby alive I'm all for it!! My muscle car driving friends laugh at me when I see a tastefully modded Civic Si and say that it is a "bad arse" little car. They still have a hard time understanding that there are 1,000 hp 4 cylinders out there running 7's and 8's in the 1320. On the flip side of that coin I hate when I see a "ricer" thumb his nose at a rumbling big cubic inch 8 cylinder. While it may not be the cutting edge of technology anymore that ole 8 banger can get the job done just as well as any boosted 4 or 6 cylinder.



Sean is right...the '03-'04 Mustang Cobra is the current "Toyota Supra" in that with just a very few mods those cars will flat out just fly (a pulley, intake, exhaust and tune will get you close to 500 foot pounds of torque...at the wheels!!!). Heck..with a set of drag radials and a good driver they will run high 12's BONE STOCK off the showroom floor. One heckuva machine for sure.



NavindraLR you have a very well thought out build listed there but low 12's aren't going to happen. To put things in perspective for you a 2004 Z06 Corvette weighs about 3,100lbs and will put about mid 350's hp and torque to the rear wheels...and it runs mid 12's...low 12's with a good driver. I don't think that the mods you listed are good for 350's at the front wheels and I also don't think the RSX is as light...correct me if I am wrong.



Sorry for the rant.

 

[NavindraLR]

lol.. sorry guys guess i kinda stole thread answering kenny's questions.. but anyways.. there were other mods i plan on doing, but i didnt list them... (different tranny, different final drive ratio, some other stuff...)



that is a good point you bring up Mike... as a matter of fact, a lot of import car magazines, as well as Car and Drive set the benchmark for tuned 4bangers as the ZO6. But I am pretty sure I can get in the 12's if not low 12's, reason being, b/c I watched a na rsx blow away a rsx with a cybernation stage 3 setup, running cn guardian, at english town in new jersey (a local track in that area). Obviously its going to require a lot of work, and money, but it can be done, and I plan on going all out on this car, and then keep it around as a show car when i finally can afford to get my evo or sti..

:bounce



i just looked it up also.. the car weighs 2840... then you throw in the carbon fiber hood, and carbon fiber hatch i want, and that should shave some pounds...

 

[NavindraLR]

a chance to what? not blow away your turbo 4-banger too badly.



so as to not start any arguements, i think the import/4-banger scene has really made vast improvements in the last 10 years. 10 years ago when i was racing on the streets (now i realize how stupid that was), pretty much the only mods imports could do were air filter, mufflers, and suspension. oh, having fog lights and plenty decals on the side also made your car faster. gee am i showing my age. you were lucky if your car came with a turbo and you could find parts for it. nowadays they have a whole new industry that ranges from the simple bolt-ons to whole engine blocks!



so to each their own, whatever route you choose. just make sure you keep your ride nice and clean, swirl-free. not to mention keep that side up! :wavey

i was joking... but these days if you have a v8, you have to think twice about the car you're gonna race.. you might end up being surprised.. :bow

 

[hirosh]

i was joking... but these days if you have a v8, you have to think twice about the car you're gonna race.. you might end up being surprised.. :bow

heh heh, don't worry, i know you were. i was joking too. besides, i don't want to start a war or nothing!



and definitely! damn, i've seen a few civics and integras with intercoolers behind their front bumpers, not to mention hearing the hiss of their blow-off valve. then there's the WRXs and EVOs (more WRXs in honolulu though) to worry about. and you just don't know if that civic hatchback who pulled up next to you has a h22 engine underneath the hood. it's scary. :scared

 

[hirosh]

well i guess i should throw in some suggestions to kenny's post. so here goes:



how about a roots-type supercharger with NOS? granted you have the money. a roots-type supercharger for great power and torque off the line, while the NOS for the top end when the S/C starts to run out of steam. granted, this will probably require a built engine with aftermarket rods, pistons, sleeves and such. and you might as well port the heads a bit too, and get a good fuel system to keep the engine from blowing up. of course, you'll need to tune it, and then upgrade the drivetrain to handle the new power, along with the good tires.



another option since this will be a daily driver, how about just NOS? build or add the mods to make it a little more powerful than stock, and then dump a good amount of NOS into it? that way it can be driven like a stocker, yet when you need the power, it's only a flip of the switch (remote bottle opener) and a push of a button?



i think either a turbo or s/c would work, as long as they are properly size and tuned for your needs. just like detailing, you want to make sure you have the proper tools and technique for the job. in this case, a turbo or s/c that will give you not only the amount of power you're looking for, but one that gives you the power curve you'll need for a street car and one that is tuned to survive on pump gas and the rigors of daily driving.

 

[stilez]

hirosh: It's an H22, get it str8 :rofl

 

[hirosh]

sorry, i'm not familiar with the import lingo of b16, b18, h22, sr20det, etc etc. us domestic guys like to keep it simple, you know, small-block chevy, big-block chevy, small-block ford, big-block ford, maybe get a little bit more technical by calling them by their cubic displacement. and with stangers, we get a little more fancy with 302, 5.Oh, 4.6, 4.6 Cammer.



but thanks sean for the correct terminology.