The truth about carnauba vs acrylics/polymers

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imported_alan81

New member
NEED YOUR OPINION. I found this short article at a website. This article gives me a really bad impression on polymer based wax. I really need your opinion to answer two questions:

- is polymer based wax really that bad ????

- which is better, carnauba based wax or polymer ????

Thanks.



Here is the article:



Acrylics and polymers are essentially plastics. Plastics are a man-made substance made from petroleum. Plastics have their place, but we do not feel it should be on your car's finish.



When you use a natural carnauba wax, the paint is allowed to expand and contract naturally; the carnauba does not impede this process. However, plastics are a molecular "chain" that interlocks with the molecular "chains" next to them, so that no individual "chain" can move without all of the "chains" moving together. Because of this, plastics do not allow the paint to naturally expand and contract and can cause premature paint failure. This failure will show up in the form of cracked paint, sometimes also called "spider webbing" because of its look.



One last problem with plastic-based products is that they layer and build. With a carnauba-based product the wax does not build up in layers; each new application leaves a constant amount of wax on the car, regardless of how many times you apply it. With plastics, one layer builds on top of the existing layer; this can cause discoloration or yellowing of your car's finish. To prevent this, most manufacturers of plastic-based coatings also sell a "cleaning" kit to remove the old coating. This "cleaning" kit is usually nothing more than a polish or solvent to remove the old plastic before applying more plastic. :bounce
 
I think I should include the source of this article......



http://waxdepot.safeshopper.com/faq.htm



They also believe that Teflon does not work. Here is the snap:





I see products advertised with Teflon®. Does this help?

No. Although Teflon® is an exceptional product when used as intended, it provides no benefit in a wax or polish. According to G.R. Ansul of DuPont's Car Care Products, Specialty Products Division, "The addition of a Teflon® flouropolymer resin does nothing to enhance the properties of a car wax. We have no data that indicates the use of Teflon® fluoropolymer resins is beneficial in car waxes, and we have not seen data from other people that supports this position." Manufacturers of gimmicky, over-hyped products sometimes claim that their products contain Teflon®, hoping that the consumer will believe there is something special about that product. Ansul also notes that, "Unless Teflon® is applied at 700 degrees F, it is not a viable ingredient, and is 100 percent useless in protecting the paint's finish." This is hot enough that your car's paint (let alone your car) wouldn't survive.



Teflon® is a registered trademark of Dupont.



(Source: Grisanti, Stephen, "The Truth Abouth Teflon®", Professional Carwashing & Detailing, January, 1989.)
 
Polymer products are perfectly fine for use on paint finishes and WILL NOT cause paint failure.. They have been tested and approved by the largest paint suppliers in the world, in fact they are recommended.



Consider the source for this information, easy for the WAX depot to bash polymer products, especially when they are trying to sell you a caranuba.



EDIT: Products with Teflon in them are a total marketing ploy by the way.
 
Not only what showroom said, but tell my why dealerships always try and sell their $300 polymer treatment when you buy a new car?
 
Correct me if I am wrong, but I have also been told that the molecular chain in the polymer sealents will indeed expand and contract with the object they are applied to.



Kelly
 
Whoever said that wax doesn't build up layers has never been surfing, at least not successfully. To wax a surfboard you rub and rub and rub wax formed in the shape of a hockey puck until little mounds start to pile up. Theses mounds start to bulid into little peaks that pull more and more of the wax from the wax disc onto the surfboard.



After about five minutes you have wax that builds little peaks and valleys. You can get this stuff about 1/8 of an inch thick in no time at all. Now you have a slip free surface so you won't slide off your board in the water.



This same process happens on you car when you wax it, only the wax is Carnuba and the thickness is much much less than on a surfboard. The same peaks and valleys build on your cars surface. When it rains the water settles in the little valleys and not on the peaks,that is where water beads come from.



So my point is that wax does build up in layers especially when an orbital buffer is used, and to a lesser degree when you wax by hand.
 
laynlow said:
tell my why dealerships always try and sell their $300 polymer treatment when you buy a new car?
Click to expand...



Because dealers know there a people stupid enough to pay $300 for $2 worth of wax and 1/2 hour of labor. ;)
 
Scottwax said:




Because dealers know there a people stupid enough to pay $300 for $2 worth of wax and 1/2 hour of labor. ;)
Click to expand...



Yeah, I get it, my point is if polymers are bad, why are they a dealer installed option? ;)
 
The guy who wrote the article says that you shouldn't use polymer because it is not a naturally occuring substance and that because it is a naturally occuring substance that it is better.



PAINT IS NOT A NATURALLY OCCURING SUBSTANCE so maybe it shouldn't be on my car too, but then again I have never seen a galvanized steel tree either, so maybe my car shouldn't be made out of it.



I use Klasse on my car and I love it.



BTW: all naturally occuring substaces are not always good or better than man made substances. There are a lot of products advertized today that are all natural or naturally occuring but that dosen't mean they are any good ie: sulphuric acid is an all natural substance.
 
As a Klasse SG with a Blitz topper guy, I can say polymers are superior in about every way. The carnuba topper, specificly Blitz always streaks and blotches after sitting in the sun, requiring a buff or QD to remove. While carnuba may be great for a weekend only garaged car, it certianly has its drawbacks for daily drivers.
 
fchans said:
NEED YOUR OPINION. Acrylics and polymers are essentially plastics.

Plastics have their place, but we do not feel it should be on your car's finish.



When you use a natural carnauba wax, the paint is allowed to expand and contract naturally; the carnauba does not impede this process. However, plastics are a molecular "chain" that interlocks with the molecular "chains" next to them, so that no individual "chain" can move without all of the "chains" moving together. Because of this, plastics do not allow the paint to naturally expand and contract and can cause premature paint failure. This failure will show up in the form of cracked paint, sometimes also called "spider webbing" because of its look.
Click to expand...





From what I remember back in the day of Acrylics clothing ( Discos) that when on the dance floor, making a complete fool of myself, that moving one extremity did require the other extremity to be force to also move. There is more then enough flexiblity in a polymer material. This is the most outrageous hit I have seen about polymer sealants. Why didn't this guy do his research and discover that some or similiar flexiblity agents are added to car finish sealants. Yes, if you melt down your clear plastic from a Revell model car and pour it over your paint the combination of this type of plastic and a car finish would not be compatible. Obviously this guy/gal missed his chemistry classes and obvious daily observations of the many properties that polymers have(plastic bags to bullet-proof barriers) . :nixweiss.

Only goes to show that the internet has many sources of BS. Weed out the truth.
 
laynlow said:




Yeah, I get it, my point is if polymers are bad, why are they a dealer installed option? ;)
Click to expand...



so are car bras and dealer installed stereos, but dealers will still try to sell them to you. they're trying to make $$, and will follow any marketing gimick/buzz word to sell them to you. "Polymer", sounds expensive and difficult so people don't think twice on putting it on a car they love, plus probably the sell that you don't have to wax for 6 months to a year.



I agreee, no problem using polymers. Btw, clear bras/X-pel, etc probalby seal in the paint more then a polymer, I figure, so if these things are okay, a liquid polymer should be fine.
 
I agree with the points that MiGTI and blkZ28Conv pointed out :up



Just like with herbal medicine and homeopathy, "all natural" doesn't mean it's safe or even beneficial. Saying catch phrases like that smacks of snake oil to my ears.



And yes, just like a sheet of saran wrap, plastic bottle, etc synthetically made products can flex and stretch also. Even if it does form a theoretical solid sheet over your paint, how much really does it need to flex and expand? It's a car, not a balloon. I honestly think there's some misunderstanding about these "polymer chains" out there. It seems like people think that they chemically react to form one huge interlocking macromolecule on a molecular level, which I highly doubt. In reality they're probably just a pile of individual chains that happen to hold together really well (once the solvent leaves), but are NOT molecularly bonded - there's a big difference. This is just my guess, but it sounds right to me....



Note: Zaino seems to imply some kind of chemical reaction since it requires Z1 or ZFX to work right. This sounds like a catalyst like the hardening agent in Bondo or epoxy. Can any Z user shed some light on this?
 
stuart hicks said:
Whoever said that wax doesn't build up layers has never been surfing, at least not successfully. To wax a surfboard you rub and rub and rub wax formed in the shape of a hockey puck until little mounds start to pile up. Theses mounds start to bulid into little peaks that pull more and more of the wax from the wax disc onto the surfboard.



After about five minutes you have wax that builds little peaks and valleys. You can get this stuff about 1/8 of an inch thick in no time at all.
Click to expand...



I wonder if you could wax the front of your car with something like that to protect it from rock chips and bugs? Might not look good but I'd be willing to use it for a road trip if it helped protect it!
 
You could use surf wax on your car but it wouldn't last that long in the sun. Most of it would melt because it's made of beeswax.

The residue is a sticky mess that may be hard to clean off without using solvents. Maybe try it on a beater car first. Sex wax makes a hot weather wax that is the most durable. different colors are for different temps, so go for the hottest temp wax available.
 
I put about 25 coats on Zaino on my car last summer. No ill effects after sitting outside all winter in temps that went as low as -45 deg F at night & warm enough for the sun to melt the snow on the hood during the day.



So I'd say the quality synthetics (Zaino, Klasse) are designed to be flexible enough to not cause problems with expansion/contraction, they will bond to and move with the paint during temp changes.



Just my $.02
 
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