Still getting marring etc with strict wash routine

efnfast said:
I tend to think the opposite - silvers tend to look clean all the time to me :D



When they just re-clear the car, how is that done. I.e., do they wetsand and polish the original layer, then start re-spraying, or do they strip it down to the base, re-do the base color, then clear?



I talked to a few bodyshops and none of them would simply "redo" the clear on an entire car. The only time a bodyshop spray clear over an existing paint is when they blend the clear coat of a repaired area with the existing clear coat.



I think the reason they do not simply respray the clear is because the sanding process may level down the paint unevenly. On an entire car this unevenness will be very obvious. And simply respraying clear over existing paint will cause shading and spotting.





My G35 was recently repaired for vandalism on the rear quarter panel. The painter did an excellent job prepping and painting the repaired area. The blending looked nearly invisible. They extended the clear coat from the rear quarter all the way to the C-Pillar, where the clear coat blending ends. HOWEVER, despite the excellent job and effort spent on painting, the bodyshop buffed out the area where the clear coat blend line ended, in order to eliminate the clear coat blending seam line.



They overbuffed the seam line and burnt through the clear coat as well as the paint at the corner of the C-pillar. I discovered this damaged area 90 days AFTER the repaint when I was waxing the area. I told the bodyshop manager and he said that he would have a look at it, and if he confirms that the problem was of his making, he would fix it for me. Because the area has some missing paint, they cannot simply "redo" the clear. They will have to repaint the entire area.
 
the_invisible said:
I talked to a few bodyshops and none of them would simply "redo" the clear on an entire car. The only time a bodyshop spray clear over an existing paint is when they blend the clear coat of a repaired area with the existing clear coat.



I think the reason they do not simply respray the clear is because the sanding process may level down the paint unevenly. On an entire car this unevenness will be very obvious. And simply respraying clear over existing paint will cause shading and spotting.





My G35 was recently repaired for vandalism on the rear quarter panel. The painter did an excellent job prepping and painting the repaired area. The blending looked nearly invisible. They extended the clear coat from the rear quarter all the way to the C-Pillar, where the clear coat blending ends. HOWEVER, despite the excellent job and effort spent on painting, the bodyshop buffed out the area where the clear coat blend line ended, in order to eliminate the clear coat blending seam line.



They overbuffed the seam line and burnt through the clear coat as well as the paint at the corner of the C-pillar. I discovered this damaged area 90 days AFTER the repaint when I was waxing the area. I told the bodyshop manager and he said that he would have a look at it, and if he confirms that the problem was of his making, he would fix it for me. Because the area has some missing paint, they cannot simply "redo" the clear. They will have to repaint the entire area.



ok. well somewhat right and somewhat not. they could simply sand it down and reclear... how do you think the car looks after the initial wetsanding and clear coat? they have to sand it to remove heavy orange peel and nib out any dust particles. same thing, and when you spray clear coat, if the clear under it is uneven, the clear self levels (based on what kind of clear they used and how fast the activator is, and what the humidity and temperature is in the booth) as they lay it down. a straight body (no dents or pits), and if a new layer of clear is thrown on it, you wont see any "waves".



and your body shop trying to sand and buff out a clear spray line is the sign of a bad bodyshop anyway, the paint isnt skilled in blending if he has a paint line. a skilled painter will feather the clear, consisiting of a full layer of clear extending outward, then do a 25% thinner to 75% clear mix, and lay that down farther out toward the area without clear, then 50% 50% and finally end it feathering out the clear to basically make it look like overspray would look, but the clear "overspray" on top of the existing clear gives you zero "line" to sand and buff out, preventing an inexperienced painter from trying to buff away the line.







you could find a shop to re-clear the paint, just need to find the best one for it. and to be honest, if no one will do it, you can remove all of your trim on your own, remove the headlights and taillights to save money and time, and the most they should charge you for a base+clear job would be around 700ish for the time and supplys. if your skilled enough in wet sanding and buffing, then you could save even more, and do the wetsanding, buffing etc and do it yourself.











aside from this, if the paint gets marred easily, why not invest in a power washer and hook a water supply up from your hot water inside, it should remove about 98% of the dirt on the car before washing after doing a foam bath, which should effectively eliminate marring unless the mit or foam grout sponge your using has things embedded in it that you arent seeing
 
Turbocress said:
ok. well somewhat right and somewhat not. they could simply sand it down and reclear... how do you think the car looks after the initial wetsanding and clear coat? they have to sand it to remove heavy orange peel and nib out any dust particles. same thing, and when you spray clear coat, if the clear under it is uneven, the clear self levels (based on what kind of clear they used and how fast the activator is, and what the humidity and temperature is in the booth) as they lay it down. a straight body (no dents or pits), and if a new layer of clear is thrown on it, you wont see any "waves".



False. "Waving" is not the problem. The problem is spotting and shadowing when reapplying clear coat. The unevenness of paint does not cause "wave", but rather it affects the depth of the color. This is extremely noticeable on a metallic car. This is the very reason why when a small scratch on a door is being repaired by repainting the entire door.



I live in Downtown Vancouver where bodyshops and detailers specialize on higher end vehicles, such as Ferrari, Lamborghini, and Porsches. None of the bodyshops authorized to repair Ferraris or Porsches was willing to reapply only the clear coat on the hood of my 2003 BMW 7. They rather turn down my business than to accept the job. The car was a 2yr lease and I wanted to get the clear coat repaired as cheaply as possible. There is a lot of threads on MOL regarding clearcoat failure or clear coat thinng problems. The only solution the professionals suggest is repainting the entire panel. There's no other option unless you are willing to comprimise quality.







Turbocress said:
aside from this, if the paint gets marred easily, why not invest in a power washer and hook a water supply up from your hot water inside, it should remove about 98% of the dirt on the car before washing after doing a foam bath, which should effectively eliminate marring unless the mit or foam grout sponge your using has things embedded in it that you arent seeing



I am sorry, but that is not true. It depends on the type of paint being worked on.



Removing surface debris or dirt does not "eliminate" marring. Go to a Mazda3 or a Honda Civic forum. People there could easily marr the surface of their paint by gently rubbing microfiber towel on a completely clean surface.
 
the_invisible said:
False. "Waving" is not the problem. The problem is spotting and shadowing when reapplying clear coat. The unevenness of paint does not cause "wave", but rather it affects the depth of the color. This is extremely noticeable on a metallic car.



I live in Downtown Vancouver where bodyshops and detailers specialize on higher end vehicles, such as Ferrari, Lamborghini, and Porsches. None of the bodyshops authorized to repair Ferraris or Porsches was willing to repair the clear coat failure on the hood of my 2003 BMW 7 series by simply redoing the clear coat. There is a lot of threads on MOL regarding clearcoat failure or clear coat thinng problems. The only solution the professionals suggest is repainting the entire panel. There's no other option unless you are willing to comprimise quality.







I am sorry, but that is not true.



Removing surface debris or dirt does not "eliminate" marring. Go to a Mazda3 or a Honda Civic forum. People there could easily marr the surface of their paint by gently rubbing microfiber towel on a completely clean surface.



if they are sanding the whole car and respraying the whole car, its not too likely that your going to have low spots, they arent removing much clear at all just to get the surface prepped to spray clear on. if they are doing a blending job on part of a panel, then yes your correct.



its just a simple thing that since you already know whats wrong with the paint being marred from.... anything... then if you really want to keep your paint perfect as long as possible, then just go and get a completely new paint job with a harder paint.







you can mar alot of paint on alot of different cars by simply rubbing a towel on it hard enough. but if you get rid of 95%+ of the dirt on it before going to the wash step, your wash mit and the whole car will be libricated. and then just blow it almost dry, then come back, spray on a detailer or waterless was solution, prime your drying towel, and lightly dry it... or blot the water away and come back with a detailer and drying towel/microfiber to remove any slight mineral deposits. either way, its either be extremely careful not to damage the paint, or just get a new paint job if it bothers him that much
 
the_invisible said:
And simply respraying clear over existing paint will cause shading and spotting.



This is what I have on my truck where it was repainted and the new clear was blended over the old. It's not pretty, and would be even worse on black. I've never seen a repaint that looked as good as factory paint. The closest I've seen are the rare cases where the whole car was sanded down to metal and it was reprimed, base, clear coated. That's a lot of money to make your clear coat harder.



I'd do this:

1) practice better washing skills

2) use a mild abrasive and/or filler product often

3) convince yourself that you like doing all this work to keep down the swirls



Actually, these three things are exactly what I do. I've never had great luck with a BHB, but after reading Accumulator and Super's posts, I'm going to give mine another shot...
 
I know a local Mazda guy that specialize in detailing Mazda vehicles on the weekends to pay for bills. He is a nurse by day, and I consider him to be a fairly sophisicated person. He is actually a professional detailer; aside from doing a heck of a good job, he files taxes on the income he earned from detailing. In a way, detailing is his official profession.





He said that there's really no way to prevent marring. The soft paint really isn't such a bad thing if you look at it another way. Scratch removal and correction on softer paint is like a dream. You pay the price one way or another.
 
wfedwar said:
This is what I have on my truck where it was repainted and the new clear was blended over the old. It's not pretty, and would be even worse on black. I've never seen a repaint that looked as good as factory paint. The closest I've seen are the rare cases where the whole car was sanded down to metal and it was reprimed, base, clear coated. That's a lot of money to make your clear coat harder.



I'd do this:

1) practice better washing skills

2) use a mild abrasive and/or filler product often

3) convince yourself that you like doing all this work to keep down the swirls



Actually, these three things are exactly what I do. I've never had great luck with a BHB, but after reading Accumulator and Super's posts, I'm going to give mine another shot...



basically thats all he can do, aside from repainting it.





but for the record, a friend of mine in hawaii is a collision repairman, and does all kinds of patch work, touchups and when removing dents, if the clear is bad in the area, will sand, bodywork, and respray, and when he does the respray, lays some new color on, and then new clear over and feathers it properly.. seen him do it on a number of cars including a bmw335i, and it was impossible to tell where the blending was done or that there was patchwork.



so i do know its possible, but it is hard to come by people who know how to do it properly and who have done it enough to know how to make it look like nothing happened (he has had trouble with certain kinds of clear though, some dont blend as well as others)









GL with the BHB.... im still sketchy about using them, but thats me lol, and i like to see things with my own eyes before believing heh.
 
God I love this forum and don't know what I would do without it. Thank you all for the responses. I am going to try to revamp and tighten up my routine as I have picked up a couple of good ideas from the posts made.



I never looked at this that way in regards to at least if is soft then it is easily corrected which I have found to be true on this vehicle. Kinda a half full glass outlook.



I will say that being able to use FPII on a white pad and remove almost all the marring alfter a ipa wipedown is a nice thing. Certain spots occasionly need IP but I guess I can't complain.
 
efnfast said:
What about 106 vs FPII. On the Menz. scale it's 2.5 vs 2, so it's more aggressive, but in real-world terms, how much more is that in terms of clear removal on a white pad?







bizump 4 opinion
 
toyotaguy said:
unnoticeable IMO....you will sell the car before you run out of clear



unfortunately I have several cars I'll never be able to sell, since they're like my children :bawling:



like



fincbr1.jpg




and (not mine; receiving mine next month)



sprbna.jpg






In the end though, are we talking like, if clearcoat failure was going to happen, the difference between 106 and FPII being 1-2 extra polishes at most, or like 10-15?
 
When 106 first came out, (I think it was) CMA that had something on their site about how the abrasive size (and type) was the same in 106FF as it was in FPII; there was just twice as much in 106, and 106 had a different type/consistency of lubrication, better suited for higher PRM's on harder clear coats and longer working times til breakdown. Whether or not all that is true or not.... who knows?



That, and the chart that you refer to, is really all the info I've been able to find about 106. So it's basically double concentrated FPII, made to have a longer time til the abrasives break down. How much more clear coat is removed in one application of it vs. FPII? I would guess quite a bit more than FPII, but even at that level, it's not a lot. I certainly wouldn't feel bad about using 106 twice a year indefinitely. But honestly, if the depth of your clear is getting to be a concern, a paint thickness gauge is certainly less expensive than a new paint job, and will give you a lot of peace of mind.



Now that I think about it, 106 might be based on FP, and not FPII... I wish I would have kept that text on it...
 
SuperBee364 said:
Now that I think about it, 106 might be based on FP, and not FPII... I wish I would have kept that text on it...



...and I was thinking it was a more concentrated version of 85RD. I remember CMA saying that auto builders (MB?) switched from 85RD to 106FF in thier assembly plants.
 
wfedwar said:
...and I was thinking it was a more concentrated version of 85RD. I remember CMA saying that auto builders (MB?) switched from 85RD to 106FF in thier assembly plants.



The menzerna rep told me at AG's detail fest that 106FF had 2x the "powder" as PO85RD since they wanted more correction quicker.
 
85RD is also Ceramiclear rated; it has the additional abrasives added to it just like 106FF does. However, 85RD's abrasive is smaller, hence the higher gloss/less cut on Menzerna's chart. You'll notice that it *is* rated as Ceramiclear, though. I believe 106FF (having the larger abrasive) was based on FP, and 85RD (having the smaller abarasive, but still Ceramiclear rated) was based on FPII.



Double the abrasive and change the lube of FP = 106FF



Double the abrasive and change the lube of FPII = 85RD
 
*pontificates*



So if you were using white/106 as your very mild polish, if you wanted to go very very mild with white, would you go with 85rd or FPii?
 
FPII. I love 85RD, don't get me wrong... but no matter what your paint (soft or hard), if you take the time to do numerous applications of FPII, you'll get the best gloss attainable with an abrasive polish. It just takes time. And the harder the clear, the more time and applications it'll take.



Got some time to kill? Grab a zero bite pad and some FPII. Prep a section of your hood, and do five or six applications (start to finish... apply, buff, break down, remove) of FPII. Each application should take about two minutes, at least. You won't believe the gloss you'll have.
 
Heh heh..."time to kill". As the song goes "..and time'll kill you right back" :chuckle:



As I toy with the idea of maybe getting the S8 really nice again during its winter hibernation, I'm wondering if the 85RD would be an OK substitute for numerous passes with FPII. I was previously happy with the 1Z HG followed by 1Z Pro MP, but eh...I'm just kicking the idea around.
 
Accumulator said:
Heh heh..."time to kill". As the song goes "..and time'll kill you right back" :chuckle:



As I toy with the idea of maybe getting the S8 really nice again during its winter hibernation, I'm wondering if the 85RD would be an OK substitute for numerous passes with FPII. I was previously happy with the 1Z HG followed by 1Z Pro MP, but eh...I'm just kicking the idea around.



With how hard that Audi paint is, I'd bet you could get just as good of gloss out of the 85RD as the FPII.



My 1Z HG hasn't seen a lot of use lately, as it really does seem best suited for really hard clears. I'd like to get a few more cars with clears hard enough to use it on, as it's so easy and fast to use. Wonder how multiple polishings with it would look on hard Audi clear.... ;)
 
SuperBee364- Yeah, I dunno if switching to something from Menzerna for this might just be trying to fix something that's not broken.
 
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