🙈🙉🙊 Stagefright 🙈🙉🙊

[bad penny]

I`ve been at this for a long time. Lots of things have changed but one thing that hasn`t is the anxiety that goes into each detail before I get started. It`s like every day is my first day. I question if I`m even capable of doing some of the jobs that I take on, but yet, continually there I am doing it (and succeeding day after day after day after day...)
Once I get going I fall into rhythm and everything runs smoothly. My mind is usually so far away from the actual work that I`m doing. I don`t understand why I continue to question my ability.

This got me to wondering if any one else feels this way about their job or is it just me that suffers from this affliction?
Your occupation doesn`t necessarily have to be car detailing.

Thanks for playing along

 

[Accumulator]

Bad Penny- I`ll play! I love topics like this, they interest me far more than Detailing

No performance anxiety here; I`m the other way, to a pretty extreme level. But I put a *LOT* into, uhm...programming myself for success at the things I do. It was a conscious effort over many years, something I really *WORKED* at.

Here`re some Qs that come to mind:

-Do you think your apprehension is grounded in reality? Like, do you feel that way because something really does have a likely potential to be a huge "oops!"? It sounds like that`s not a real problem since things go OK once you`re rolling with it and it seems you`re happy with your results.

If you don`t really have a reason to doubt yourself, you need to convince yourself to just not go there mentally; irrational thoughts really don`t have any place in our experience IMO. Easy to say, not so easy to do I know! And not something to sort out in just a few dozen hours either, it can be a lifelong endeavor, but that doesn`t mean it`s not worth it. Every bit of effort can lead to a little bit of progress and you just keep building on those successes. Forever.

-Why do *you* think you feel the anxiety *repeatedly*? Once you do something, do you spend some time programming yourself to believe it (really *BELIEVE* it, not just "say it to yourself" superficially)? Like...sit back and take in your accomplishment- "man, I sure did a great job again, but [flip], I always do because I`m the [stuff]!" Again, a real *conscious effort* to imprint those thoughts, make `em part of who you are and how you view Life.

-Do you have a clear-cut understanding of your actual limitations? There are probably things that anybody doesn`t do perfectly every time, and knowing/accepting such limits can be liberating if only because the stuff on the other side of the fence ("stuff I`m confident I can do because it always goes OK") is in a different mental category...the "I don`t have to worry about this, just have to keep doing what I do" category. That`s the category to build up, so it can outweigh the "uh-oh, I dunno about this..." stuff.

-Do you think that letting your mind stray from what you`re doing is a good idea? I find it best to focus on what I`m doing ("Do what you`re doing" as the saying goes), and I mean literally 100%. I don`t even turn on the shop stereo any more. It`s like when I doing (genuinely) serious driving- I turn off the radio and the passenger(s) know to stay quiet no matter what`s happening. When I find my mind wandering, I *STOP* and reset myself.

I find that focusing on the task at hand helps me build/maintain confidence. Full immersion in the experience helps it really register on me, building up the "OK, I got this.." attitude that I can pull up in my mind the next time. "If I did it before, so I can do it again" and that "yeah, I`m *doing* it!" leads to..."OK, I *did* it, and I`ll do it at least as well next time too!" type of mindset really takes hold better the more I focus on what I`m doing.

It sounds to me like you`re doing OK at this Detailing stuff, you just need to get your head right. I figure you`re doing the *work itself* right, just not using those successes to help yourself see things clearly.

Heh heh...yeah, armchair phsycologizing But that kind of stuff has sure worked for me. And yeah, I get a lot of it from self-help books, which kinda amuses my IRL friends; they don`t seem to connect how the guy who "reads that [crap] that everybody knows..or knows is BS" is also the happy guy who`s not having the issues that they are

 

[Bill D]

Stagefright

Accumulator, that was an outstanding post!

I’d like to add that Cognitive Behavioral Therapy can come in quite useful in a situation like this.

Spending some time on Google and YouTube alone might even be enough to at least get started on improving the situation. Albert Ellis was a founder of this type of therapy. I’ve watched some of his sessions on YouTube.

CBT is straightforward enough to follow but it does require stick-to-it-ness. It’s a retraining your brain process and it is effective once mastered

Check it out and tell us what you think.

 

[Stokdgs]

I never allow my mind to wander during a Detail.. I am very interested in the progress and the quality of my work the entire time.. I actually love this work, and this is from 10 years old..

Have absolutely no fear of anything out there, I look forward to the challenge of getting it perfect..

Having had careers where I was responsible for all the data and voice needs of tens of thousands of people 24/7, there was absolutely no room for doubt.. I had to have it right and I was on call 24/7 for decades..

What worked for me was always thinking about this responsibility (because it was running 24/7) but not to the point that it "ran" my mind and my life..
Dan F

 

[Fishing]

wow good stuff here. What kind of books do you guys like to read about this stuff ? Thank you for any help.

 

[Bill D]

Psychology texts on CBT are very helpful to understanding it. I’m sure there are plenty of self help books out there that help as well. For example, I just looked up the Anxiety and Worry Workbook. Aaron Beck is a respected psychiatrist in the field.

 

[Coatings=crack]

I do alot of analysis, external and internal before starting a task. Assess what my strengths would be and identify my weaknesses.

I don’t get anxiety but can get uber frustrated when things aren’t done right. I have the ability to calm myself down and talk myself through things. Its weird almost zen like. I had a brekdown at 23 going through a break up and once fixed myself I see things/life in a differnent way.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Accumulator]

Coatings=Crack- Sometimes those horrible experiences end up being worth the pain...As Heminway said: "Life breaks everyone, and those it can`t break it kills. But sometimes those who are broken are stronger in the broken places." [or at least that`s close..]

The way you catch yourself stressing and dial it back is great! As is the assessment, even though it can be a bit disconcerting at times when you realize what those weaknesses are. Hey, can`t fix it until you know it`s broken.

You mentioned Frustration. It can be very useful, really motivating! But that`s one tool that needs to be used *VERY* judiciously! It`s like wetsanding, something that you don`t want too much of, just enough to get going in the right direction. And if you let it get out of hand, it can distract you from what you really oughta be doing to deal with the problem. IMO it oughta be like a "oh, [snap], this is a [freakin`] PIA!!" moment that is really over and done with in a moment. Don`t *EVER* dwell on frustration, that`s invariably counterproductive. Doing something *PROductive* can generally snap you out of it, even if you`re just doing some little babystep in the right direction or switching to something else for a while until you settle down.

And I really like how you do that before-action assessment rather than just jumping in. I can tell you`re doing that part of it right as it empowers you rather than adding trepidation. (Heh heh, Detailing-specific, it brings to mind how my first suggestion to most any paint issue is "inspect it under magnification", so you can do that proper assessment and make the right plans.)

Bill D- I agree totally about Psych texts and about CBT! This is one of those real cases of "more knowledge is good" even though some of that knowledge might make you squirm a bit, at least at first.

Even when "everything is fine" the practices of CBT are really useful tools to have in the toolbox; sometimes I believe we use those without even being conscious of them, it just becomes "how we deal with Life". Heh heh, guess that`s another variety of Unconscious Competence But you gotta use `em *consciously* first, and yes indeed that does take a bit of work...like most valuable skills.

Fishing- My Cliff`s Notes for this stuff is to start with researching "Happiness". I put it in scare-quotes because IMO a lot of people don`t *really* understand it, funny as that might seem. There`s a *[crap]-ton* of great info on Happiness these days, plenty online. IMO it`s one of the great Intellectual Cafeterias, something for everyone, take what`s right for you at that moment and come back for more/something different as often as you like/need.

If..well, *WHEN*, some of it seems silly, I strongly encourage you to *NOT* just blow it off the way so many (UNhappy) people I know do. Look for those Golden Nuggets in the pile of dirt Example (and a specific recommendation) : Being Happy! by Andrew Matthews. It`s a "graphic" book (AKA...lots of "cartoons"! fer cryin` out loud!) that many would dismiss. But it has some great stuff in it and it`s one very quick, easy read, and worthwhile for *anybody*, even someone with a PhD in Psych (who probably would *not* just dismiss it )

Stokdgs- That ability to use Responsibility as fuel, but not let it, uhm... do the driving...is a great skill!

 

[Bill D]

The cartoons in that book sound like something one may encounter on a work sheet handed out in therapy. I had a ton of those in the program I interned in. I think I still have some buried in a binder somewhere.

 

[Accumulator]

Bill D- Yeah, I`ve heard that from others who`ve had (good) therapists. Heh heh, IMO that`s a clue But it can be hard to get some people over the "apparent childishness" of that approach...those easily deployed Defense Mechanisms for resisting change and all that....

 

[Bill D]

There are so many tools and techniques, much of the therapist’s time is spent on finding which kinds best suit the client.

 

[Accumulator]

There are so many tools and techniques, much of the therapist’s time is spent on finding which kinds best suit the client.

True...for *GOOD* therapists I can`t help but make the distinction. There are some, uhm.."unisize approach" [individuals] out there too.

 

[Liz@Autopia]

Thanks for starting this topic bad penny. It has generated some very interesting and thoughtful replies. Not to get too far off topic, but I have an 18 year old son who is a fantastic guitar player (that`s not just mom bias, he really is good ) but he struggles sometimes with self-doubt like you describe and it`s holding him back. Once he gets going, he gets that burst of confidence and it`s all good from there, but sometimes getting over that initial "bump" of negative thoughts is tough. He`s at that age where anything mom and dad say is pretty much automatically the stupidest thing ever uttered in human history (it`s ok, I know we`ll get smarter in a few years ) but you all have given me some good ideas for things to suggest to him, so thanks!

 

[Accumulator]

Thanks for starting this topic bad penny...

Yes, *yes*, *YES*! This kind of discussion is what I`m always hoping will come up (along with topics on the Health & Fitness thread).

Not to get too far off topic, but I have an 18 year old son..

Noting that I sure hope Bad Penny agrees with me, and it appears he does.. IMO that`s not off-topic at all, but rather right in-line with what we`re discussing.

.. sometimes getting over that initial "bump" of negative thoughts is tough..

Yeah, being able to short-circuit where that can go will be a great skill once he gets the hang of it. Having both that ability *and* the doubts about it oughta actually be a good combo as he can rise above those doubts by doing what he *can* do once he gets rolling. Like..he has the solution right at his fingertips (heh heh, literally in this case ).

Gee, 18 sounds like...well, if he starts getting a handle on tings *now* he`s gonna be set for a really good life. A lot of people don`t face some (actually surmountable, if still) difficult challenge until later, and by then they might not realize they *can* overcome it, might not have the skills to do so. And yeah, it *IS* a skillset. Great to fill that toolbox at a young age.

He`s at that age where anything mom and dad say is pretty much automatically the stupidest thing ever uttered in human history (it`s ok, I know we`ll get smarter in a few years )

Heh heh, good on you for remember that from when *you* were Young and Immortal I`m guessing that you won`t make some of the too-common mistakes since you know how that all goes.

..you all have given me some good ideas for things to suggest to him, so thanks!

Seriously, Liz, *I* am the one who`s thankful..to Bad Penny for giving some of us the opportunity to share what tends to be some rather hard-earned knowledge *and* to learn even more from what others share. "Live to tell" is a lot more useful, and rewarding, when you actually *get the chance* to tell, preferably to somebody who`s (really) listening. And this is one topic where IMO you never learn everything that there is to know.

 

[Liz@Autopia]

Gee, 18 sounds like...well, if he starts getting a handle on tings *now* he`s gonna be set for a really good life. A lot of people don`t face some (actually surmountable, if still) difficult challenge until later, and by then they might not realize they *can* overcome it, might not have the skills to do so. And yeah, it *IS* a skillset. Great to fill that toolbox at a young age.

Thanks Accumulator! One mistake I see him make, and it might be applicable to detailing as well, is to think that just because *some* parts of a job come super easy to you naturally, *all* parts of it should, and then when you bump up against something a little more difficult or that takes a little extra time/effort or requires you to learn a new skill or way of doing things, it can feel like failure just because you don`t see instant perfect results.

A lot of the music stuff has always come as easily to my son as swimming is to a fish. Some people`s brains just "speak" music, and he`s one of them. As he`s advanced though, he naturally takes on more challenging stuff and when it doesn`t come as easily as the "easy" stuff (easy to him being something that would still take me years to learn ), he takes it really hard and beats himself up about it.

Like it took him two months to learn and perfect a really awesome solo acoustic version of Stairway To Heaven and he was really down on himself that it took that long. I told him that`s a super complicated song and there are people who have been trying to learn it for 20 years that still couldn`t do it as well as he does, but in his mind it should have come as easily as learning some basic three chord Jimmy Buffett song and when it didn`t, it rattled him. Once he worked up the courage to play it in public at a local open mic night and the crowd was blown away, he finally realized that it really was awesome and nobody cared how long it took him to learn it. B)

I think sometimes we have to remind ourselves that even stuff we are really good at can be difficult or require a little something "extra" (skills, knowledge, grit and determination, or sometimes just plain old luck) to get through it, and that`s OK - it doesn`t mean we`re a failure or inadequate.

 

[Accumulator]

Thanks Accumulator! One mistake I see him make, and it might be applicable to detailing as well, is to think that just because *some* parts of a job come super easy to you naturally, *all* parts of it should, and then when you bump up against something a little more difficult or that takes a little extra time/effort or requires you to learn a new skill or way of doing things, it can feel like failure just because you don`t see instant perfect results.

Perfect examples of "that stuff you oughta learn while young". He`s sure not unusual for being that way Well, maybe he *is* unusual, in a good way, for findings ways to figure such stuff out now.

A lot of the music stuff has always come as easily to my son as swimming is to a fish.

That`s a truly great aptitude to be born with, but can also be double-edged sword. Just like how a *LOT* of highly intelligent people never learn good thinking skills because they can "get by" pretty OK by just leaning on their IQ.

Some people`s brains just "speak" music, and he`s one of them.

It`s wonderful that he not only *has* that gift, but has discovered it! Innate abilities like that are really something.

Like it took him two months to learn and perfect a really awesome solo acoustic version of Stairway To Heaven and he was really down on himself that it took that long... it rattled him. Once he worked up the courage to play it in public at a local open mic night and the crowd was blown away, he finally realized that it really was awesome and nobody cared how long it took him to learn it. B)

That`s a perfect learning experience IMO, something he can draw on for the rest of his life. Heh heh, I get a little chill just thinking about it

I think sometimes we have to remind ourselves that even stuff we are really good at can be difficult or require a little something "extra" (skills, knowledge, grit and determination, or sometimes just plain old luck) to get through it, and that`s OK - it doesn`t mean we`re a failure or inadequate.

Yes indeed! The exact *opposite* of being an inadequate failure IMO.

Hey, this is one of those (many) Lessons I had to learn the hard way, and learned pretty late in life; my mother was one of those "only idiots had to study to get through Law School, it`s *nothing at all* unless you`re stupid" types and growing up with that gave me some...poor perspectives (e.g., no way was I gonna try Law School lest she think me an idiot just for studying).

 

[Stokdgs]

Thanks Accumulator! One mistake I see him make, and it might be applicable to detailing as well, is to think that just because *some* parts of a job come super easy to you naturally, *all* parts of it should, and then when you bump up against something a little more difficult or that takes a little extra time/effort or requires you to learn a new skill or way of doing things, it can feel like failure just because you don`t see instant perfect results.

A lot of the music stuff has always come as easily to my son as swimming is to a fish. Some people`s brains just "speak" music, and he`s one of them. As he`s advanced though, he naturally takes on more challenging stuff and when it doesn`t come as easily as the "easy" stuff (easy to him being something that would still take me years to learn ), he takes it really hard and beats himself up about it.

Like it took him two months to learn and perfect a really awesome solo acoustic version of Stairway To Heaven and he was really down on himself that it took that long. I told him that`s a super complicated song and there are people who have been trying to learn it for 20 years that still couldn`t do it as well as he does, but in his mind it should have come as easily as learning some basic three chord Jimmy Buffett song and when it didn`t, it rattled him. Once he worked up the courage to play it in public at a local open mic night and the crowd was blown away, he finally realized that it really was awesome and nobody cared how long it took him to learn it. B)

I think sometimes we have to remind ourselves that even stuff we are really good at can be difficult or require a little something "extra" (skills, knowledge, grit and determination, or sometimes just plain old luck) to get through it, and that`s OK - it doesn`t mean we`re a failure or inadequate.

Liz,
Thank you so much for your posts about your boy.. He certainly sounds amazing ! I am so happy for him !

I have always appreciated music, and been around many who were so good at it. Most of them came with that specific music "gene" or something and that surely helped a lot.

I was lucky to go through school in Texas, way back when the Teachers came dressed in nice, modest, clothes, shirts with ties for the men, the kind of teachers that were respected by all..
These teachers were also very, very, well educated, and you could tell, they loved what they did for us kids..

One of the most influential teachers I met at my Jr. High Music Class (Middle School), was Jean Brown..
She absolutely LOVED Music - All Music- and was very well schooled in how to sight read and play music..

She took all of us on these wonderful tours of music masters from way, way, back, past the 12th Century, and then back to the most modern music going on in 1964..

We listened to, and sang all that music from some of the great masters - Antonio Lucio Vivaldi, Johannes Chrysostomus Wolfgangus Theophilus Mozart, and so many others.. I absolutely Loved it !!!

What I ultimately understood after those delightful 2 years of study with Jean Brown, was that for anyone to ever, ever, really, "get" music, one must study alot and learn how to read and write it correctly..
There were no computers, no applications, no nothing back in the 12th century, and the music written then is still the most beautiful, complete, joy, even written in 8-part harmonies and more !

And even reading books about these masters, and how they struggled and worked, and then the inspiration came, and it was all so beautiful when finished, is still a wonderful thing to learn about and even receive inspiration from today.

I have personally loved singing, and have been in a zillion Church Choirs, etc., and it has always been such a treat to hear how all the 4 parts come together, and then with all the timing, accents, etc., are performed, and only then, does one actually "get" what the Composer got, and put to paper..

Here is a little example of a music teacher and her class that shows how much more can be had when the music part is studied from the beginning -- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yrJiLifc5zQ

Dan F

 

[Accumulator]

I was lucky to go through school in Texas, way back when the Teachers came dressed in nice, modest, clothes, shirts with ties for the men, the kind of teachers that were respected by all..
These teachers were also very, very, well educated, and you could tell, they loved what they did for us kids..

That`s significant IMO, and you were indeed lucky! No surprise that you still remember the names of the teachers who made a diff. Or that they knew from the "look sharp, be sharp" mindset.

These days, even Middle School can be a genuine warzone, with the adults just keeping those "kids" from seriously injuring each other..or the faculty/staff (that happens all the time in my area now). I know people working multiple min.-wage jobs just so their kids can go to safe schools, and my area isn`t remotely in the "high crime" category.

There were no computers, no applications, no nothing back in the 12th century..

When I think of the stuff that was produced, before we had any of the modern conveniences like...*erasers*...it just boggles my mind. Writing stuff with a quill pen...hundreds of pages with zero errors...wow. Even "casual letters" from back then blow my mind...the mental focus, the sheer *thinking* required!

The appreciation you gained from those Music courses sure helped make your life work out OK, huh?

 

[Stokdgs]

That`s significant IMO, and you were indeed lucky! No surprise that you still remember the names of the teachers who made a diff. Or that they knew from the "look sharp, be sharp" mindset.

These days, even Middle School can be a genuine warzone, with the adults just keeping those "kids" from seriously injuring each other..or the faculty/staff (that happens all the time in my area now). I know people working multiple min.-wage jobs just so their kids can go to safe schools, and my area isn`t remotely in the "high crime" category.



When I think of the stuff that was produced, before we had any of the modern conveniences like...*erasers*...it just boggles my mind. Writing stuff with a quill pen...hundreds of pages with zero errors...wow. Even "casual letters" from back then blow my mind...the mental focus, the sheer *thinking* required!

The appreciation you gained from those Music courses sure helped make your life work out OK, huh?

Mi Hermano !
Here is hoping all is very good with you, your Sweetheart, and all the Familia !

Yes, I was so Blessed to be there at that time in Dallas, Texas, for the 4 years my Dad attended S.M.U. And yes, he attended college "late", but when he decided he was going to serve as a Minister in the Methodist Church, he needed that degree, to better serve the people..

And it really helped him, because he always got to serve where there was "No" Church, and with my dear Mother`s support, they went out and found people who were happy to learn about the Savior, and remember again, the Lord, their Grandparents talked about, etc..

Then, they organized and ministered to, and eventually, there was enough of a congregation to start saving their tithes and offerings, so that a little piece of land could be purchased, and then much later, with everyone helping as much as they could, a little Church was built on that land and now there was a small, beacon of hope in a neighborhood where before there was only darkness..

We moved all over Texas during our school years, and the only regret I ever had about that was that I never was in 1 place long enough to have those "forever" friends I hear many speak of; those kids they grew up with, went through all the schools with, and now some decades later, they still know and see each other often..

But, I "did" learn a lot about building big things, how my Dad worked on, and with with all the contractors, etc., and somehow, with much Faith and many, many, Blessings, we saw many Churches raised, and left them with a great congregation, self sufficient, so that they could go on, and we moved on to the next blank slate..

And another view of Jean Brown, Music Teacher, W.E. Greiner Jr. High, Dallas, Texas - She was young, very mature, had short, straight, dark hair, cut in the latest "Beatnik" style, and wore black glasses.. She dressed very well, never did anything wrong, and I could tell - we could all tell - her love of music was at that immeasurable depth forever.. She absolutely loved all things music, was very, very, organized, and had a "Plan" to insure we not only learned how to sing properly, read a little music along the way, and then go places in time, where the most beautiful music was ever written, sang, and played in the history of mankind !
I have tried many times to find her and thank her again, but have not ever been able to make that connection.. I think she may be in her 80-90`s now, not exactly sure.. I hope I can sometime find her and would be so happy to drive the 2,000 miles one way to go see her and give her a hug and thank her for all she did for this little, poor, brown boy in the 60`s..

Ref. the Masters - I am always amazed to think about how these incredible people first studied, and then worked so hard to compose note by note, the most beautiful music ever known !! And as you said, with nothing but quill pens and an ink bottle.. Yes, they were talented, some even at high genius level, but still all the work, to come up with these beautiful melodies, then take them places; write entire Operas in other languages than the traditional Italian (Mozart), and on and on.. Oh, and of course, write note for note, the music scores for each instrument, as well as the individual singing parts, and on and on.. I am sure much of this had to be inspired by Heaven..

So, having grown up in a musical family to begin with, Church Choirs, the Music Classes, and then exposure to people older than me that for example played saxophone with the late Rahsaan Roland Kirk, growing up in California during the late 60`s on, and all that amazing music that came from some really talented people (who for a lot of them, knew how to read and write music), you would say that yes, Music certainly had a great affect on me and always brought me much joy, peace, and a good re-centering at times, when I needed just that !
Dan F

 

[Accumulator]

Stokdgs- I think it`s great how the (so positive!) influences from your younger years have helped you become the guy you are now. I see a lot of your father in you and I`m glad that`s a good thing.

If at all possible, I`d try to track down Ms. Brown. I`m sure glad I expended the necessary resources to have my final contacts with some of the oldsters who`re no longer with us.

Ref. the Masters - I am always amazed to think about how these incredible people first studied...

Even the seemingly avant garde guys like Picasso were often classically trained; those innate abilities still benefited from the "same old training". Heh heh, and the "study first!" of course plays into how I approach Detailing

And yeah...it really impresses me how so many people *learn an entire language* and study historical context so they can *really understand* things from another time/culture that just don`t resonate right when translated (e.g., anything Nietzsche wrote). No, I`ve never done that...to my detriment, I gotta rely on others, and you know how that can go