Sal Zaino on Carnauba wax

Accumulator said:
Heh heh, with my constant fussing about this topic you must be pretty :think: about why I'm always so concerned about it!



Noting that I'm not a pro (and hence haven't done a tiny fraction of the cars that you have) and that I only recently got an ETG (which promptly went INOP ), the best I can do is offer some less-than-scientific examples from my personal cars:



The Jag's ss metallic lacquer has never been aggressively polished, but it has been polished many times over the last 20-some years. At this point additional polishing results in "blotchy-looking" damage to the paint. I've consulted with some experts and everyone has said the same thing- I've thinned the build film to where it simply cannot be corrected anymore :( Dunno how much I've taken off, but it's too much. With the original paint no longer available, I don't have any choice, I have to leave it imperfect or get it reshot (and I have no interest in having it "restored").



The Volvo (now my niece-in-law's car) had the original ss that'd never been polished when I got it, so I took the PC/Cyclo to it and went through to primer in quite a few spots (not just edges and corners) trying to remove not-that-bad marring :nixweiss



The MPV's ss black window frames are worn through (just barely) to primer in spots after three (!) mild corrections via PC/4" (with 3M PI-III MG 05937). Ditto for the uncleared area on the underside of the hood. I cut through the clear on its quarter panel using the PC/4"/PI-III RC 05933 when I tried to remove a pretty bad (as in, I figured it needed spotted-in anyhow) scratch- that one sure surprised me!



On the M3, I used the rotary/orange and yellow/H-T EC trying to remove ~75K of daily driver scratches. The ETG says I removed over 0.50 mil in some places, and you can even *see* that the clear is too thin (no depth, looks lighter-than-normal, and just weird- not a burn or anything, just not right). And I didn't even get all the marring out! I'll get better readings once the ETG is back from repairs but my "this won't be a problem" approach has resulted in a need for paintwork, no question about it. Now I'm afraid to resume work on it until I get the ETG back, better safe than sorry.



My last Caprice came from a guy who'd rotaried it to death, and it had a weird light/blotchy look that was *just* like the damaged area on the M3, I'd wondered why the car just didn't look right and I figure that was it.



I had my Yukon XL detailed by ebpcivicsi before he applied its PPF (Accumulatorette had it in Memphis anyhow and I needed it done quicker than I was gonna get to it). He used rotary/twisted wool/#85 (IIRC) for the major correction and he wasn't able to get it all that great before he decided he had to stop. He even warned me that I'd better not do more correction on a few areas. No ETG readings on it, but I'm willing to take his word for it (he sure seemed surprised at how deep the marring was and how many passes were required to get it halfway decent). I can get some readings some day after the ETG comes back.



I know, those are just a few cases, but, perhaps since I'm still living with some of them, they're enough to give me pause. Especially the M3 and the Yukon, which I was certain could be corrected with no problems.



Oh, and on the damage people can cause, I've seen many nail-catchers from a single wash! The local car washes did it to my dad's cars, and he did it himself a few times when he did typical DIY washes. Most of my friends' cars have such scratches all over them and they sure look wash-induced to me :nixweiss I agree that such terrible stuff *shouldn't* happen from a few washes, but when utter neophytes start doing this stuff, well, watch out! That's why I think it's so great that many of you pros are able to educate your clients :xyxthumbs
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Thanks for sharing your experience Accumulator, I can now understand where you are coming from. :up
 
rydawg said:
That's why it is always a good thing to use a top quality compound that is up to it's correction standards. It actually rounds out deeper scratches and gives them the effect that they are not there. They can not be felt and the sun does not catch the sharp edges which makes them look bad. A perfect technique is required to get 100% even without taking off too much clear.



Using old compounds and having an uneven hand and applying too much pressure in certain spots is what causes paint failure. Working on SS paint is even trickier cause you need just the right uplift of pressure.



The worst enemy is the person behind the machine sometimes. Example: I can take liquid rocks in a bottle and work it into the paint for 5 minutes and ONLY remove a very minimal amount of clear while removing light to medium defects and rounding out the deeper ones in the clear. Then you can take a person with litttle knowledge and a PC and have them polish out the same fender and they do damage and take off tons of clear in the same amount of time.



It's all in the process and technique. Polishing perfectly even is an art.
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:bow :bow :bow



Thanks again for your input Ryan!
 
rydawg- Good points :xyxthumbs One area where my experience differs from yours (heh heh, I hardly *ever* even *think* that ;) ) is your opinion that ss is harder to work with. Generally (and I accept that "all generalizations are false" when it comes to this stuff), I always found ss easier to work with :nixweiss Perhaps it's because I did so much of this stuff back in the day when that was the only paint there was. I used to finish out fine with a rotary and wool! No way I could ever do that with b/c. That's probably why I was so shocked when I went too far on that Volvo with just the PC/foam/mild product, I simply never had such an oops with ss before that.



OTOH, I hear that todays ss isn't nearly as thick as it was back then. I read somewhere that it's often much thinner overall than most b/c paint thicknesses. Glad I'm not a pro these days with all the stuff you guys have to deal with :D





gmblack3a said:
Thanks for sharing your experience Accumulator, I can now understand where you are coming from. :up
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Heh heh, sorry that post ran so long, but I guess I got my situation across.
 
Accumulator said:
rydawg- Good points :xyxthumbs One area where my experience differs from yours (heh heh, I hardly *ever* even *think* that ;) ) is your opinion that ss is harder to work with. Generally (and I accept that "all generalizations are false" when it comes to this stuff), I always found ss easier to work with :nixweiss Perhaps it's because I did so much of this stuff back in the day when that was the only paint there was. I used to finish out fine with a rotary and wool! No way I could ever do that with b/c. That's probably why I was so shocked when I went too far on that Volvo with just the PC/foam/mild product, I simply never had such an oops with ss before that.



OTOH, I hear that todays ss isn't nearly as thick as it was back then. I read somewhere that it's often much thinner overall than most b/c paint thicknesses. Glad I'm not a pro these days with all the stuff you guys have to deal with :D









Heh heh, sorry that post ran so long, but I guess I got my situation across.
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Hahaha. SS paint is easier to correct if done correctly. You just have to use the ss method. Safe and smart. If one takes the same steps as they do CC, then they would easily burn through some SS paints easily. You can remove paint easily just with a wax applicator and wax. Remember that old saying," paint transfer"?:chuckle:



SS paint is easy to correct providing there is enough paint there. It all depends who polished it and how many times they polished it. Red SS paint is my absolute favorite to do.



I have done a lot of SS paints. I have had my over abundance share of laquer and enamel paint too. I have even done lots of Imron paints too:nomore:



I always did dread those late 70's and early 80's GM cars like the metallic Monte Carlo's:chuckle:



So the easy and hard can go both ways as I know for sure. Some of the new SS paints are superb though. I have no complaints:D Some of the new clears on other hand can be an absolute pain, and sometimes I ask myself, "why do I even bother"! New clear all take a different aproach and you must really know what you are doing and have lots of processes ready for attack. Some clears were not mixed right from the factory and polishing them can sometimes disturb the clear and make them fog up immediately.
 
rydawg said:
You can remove paint easily just with a wax applicator and wax...
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Yeah, all this ss talk has me remembering how you could do correction on GM's black lacquer with just #7 and a cotton cloth.

Remember that old saying," paint transfer"?
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*Old saying*?!? it's still a common occurrence here at my house what with the Jag and RX-7..gee, I'm really showing my age here huh :o or at least the age of my toys :D



And for the umpteenth time, you pros who deal with all the different vehicles you work on have my undying respect, I've come to appreciate that it just isn't as simple as it used to be. Sheesh, I probably sound like a suck-up, but hey, it's true.
 
Accumulator said:
Yeah, all this ss talk has me remembering how you could do correction on GM's black lacquer with just #7 and a cotton cloth.





*Old saying*?!? it's still a common occurrence here at my house what with the Jag and RX-7..gee, I'm really showing my age here huh :o or at least the age of my toys :D



And for the umpteenth time, you pros who deal with all the different vehicles you work on have my undying respect, I've come to appreciate that it just isn't as simple as it used to be. Sheesh, I probably sound like a suck-up, but hey, it's true.
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remember the old turquish terry towels?:grinno:
 
rydawg said:
remember the old turquish terry towels?:grinno:
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Heh heh, yeah, and cheesecloth, and cornstarch mixed with the #7...back when "hand-rubbed lacquer" meant exactly that.



OK, OK, we sure managed to that *this* off-topic, but at least the thread didn't die from terminal :argue and that's worth something :D
 
Accumulator said:
Oh, and on the damage people can cause, I've seen many nail-catchers from a single wash! The local car washes did it to my dad's cars, and he did it himself a few times when he did typical DIY washes. Most of my friends' cars have such scratches all over them and they sure look wash-induced to me :nixweiss I agree that such terrible stuff *shouldn't* happen from a few washes, but when utter neophytes start doing this stuff, well, watch out! That's why I think it's so great that many of you pros are able to educate your clients :xyxthumbs
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You've hit on a good subject. That is why I am the only one that details my own vehicles. Its not that I am not capable of trusting, but it is the combined facts that I enjoy detailing my own cars, and that so far I have yet to see others that are local to me that would take the kind of care that I would expect with detailing cars (meaning tape, proper pads and compounds......and of course the proper finishing product....hint hint) *Heh Heh*!!!!!-----I know it's your intellectual property...but its fun to mimik lol!!!!!!!
 
Accumulator said:
Looks like "epic word salad" on at least one of my posts though :o







What the....:think:
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You were probably out of breath from performing one of your epic 2-bucket method/foam gun/boar's hair brush car wash :D
 
Scottwax said:
Still using Carnauba Moose here. :wavey
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I was recently introduced to this stuff, and it's awesome. Very odd consistency in the bottle but it looks amazing on my red car.
 
1800 - 2011 and still being used, if its dead someone should tell Swisswax, Zymol, Victoria Wax, et al 'cause they didn't get the memo
 
This is just like the Manual Transmission vs Semi-Automatic transmission that has been waging in the sports car world. There's always gonna be a personal preference. You gotta love the visceral connection of rowing your own gears. But you can't ignore the benefits of technology, either. Times they are a changin'.
 
I have always got a kick out of the replies and opinions of carnuba and "experts" pro's and con's on it.



An example is their conception that when the label says "contains 100% carnuba wax", they assume that's the content, all carnuba was.

Not possible, if the blender goes much over 10% of content it would be virtually impossible to get it soft enough and apply to the surface, then it would be next to impossible to buff to a gloss.



4 grades of carnuba, some used in food products, some in cosmetics, etc, etc.



Top grade is almost pure white, not yellow by the way.



Many appreciate the gloss and lenght of holding up of FK-1000P, yet don't tout carnuba's as they don't hold up to heat, etc.



Here's a headline for all, FK-1000P has a high % content of "carnuba wax" in the formula!



But-WAIT-it is not (or at the time Floyd was still alive) natural carnuba, but a synthetic version produced in Europe!



Gives all the posistives that carnuba lovers want, but has a "much higher fracture point than natural carnuba wax", which was vital for the use that FK-1000P was formulated for--a mold release agent!



The curing process of gel coat and the resins in the glas fabric generates temp's above 210F.



A top grade natural carnuba fractures at around 145F. So it would not work well and would melt (fracture) before the part was cured and would then stick to the mold. You don't ever want to be the one to have to work a FRP part out of a tooling mold that has stuck!



Mequair's mades a similar mold release wax product, however when at Finish Kare, we usually beat them out when going head to head in a production shop, as the FK-1000P would out perform their product. I am NOT saying their product was a bad product, just that we had a higher fracture point and in some conditions would hold up better.



It is quite labor intensive to apply either product to a tooling mold, and requires a refreshing of the release wax every few parts cast, which sent all the companies competing to go in search of another, superior release agent.



IE-newer polymer solutions!



Wipe on, let cure, wipe off, versus the several layers of wax based release agents, 4 or more coats for the first part, with one or two layers after a part or two.



Big labor savings with the new generations of polymer release agents.



These raw polymer resins have found their way into automotive products, which are being used by many today when producing new products.



Still boils down to one thing--use what makes you happy, there really is not that much difference in most-just a different label or marketing spin.

I still love the old FK-1000P, even though it is labor intensive to apply and remove, it does it job, very, very well.

Grumpy
 
One mini trivia kind of thing it took me all but 5 or 6 years to discover about FK just the other day.



Ever notice the initials "FM" in the dot in the second "i" in the word "Finish" on the label? Surely they must stand for Floyd Meguiar. A subtle, personal touch to his company.
 
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