Removing light swirls on jet black BMW.

[deznium]

jb, red (someone here said) bmw white in general is very vey hard. Metallics are normal bmw hard.

I guess you probably don't know much about BMW paints. All BMW paints are soft and so are Infiniti, Lexus and Acura paints. This is due to some environmental related regulations.



As to be specific, between metallic and non-metallic BMW paint, the softness and clear coating is the same. It is a misconception that jet black paint is softer. You pay those $500 for the metallic flakes, which are only visible if you're 10 inches from the car. The metallic paint does have a flake-layer on top of the paint but the clear coat (where the swirls and scratches exist) depth is the same on all BMW paints. The jet black seems more softer because it shows almost everything and slightly more than black sapphire; even the lightest scratches since it is more glossy and deep. If jet black/black sapphire had different layers of clear coats, then BMW would be dis-obeying those environmental regulations. All BMW owners don't like their paint jobs. This is a very popular topic of discussion in many BMW forums.

 

[blk45]

I guess you probably don't know much about BMW paints. All BMW paints are soft and so are Infiniti, Lexus and Acura paints. This is due to some environmental related regulations.

Obviously he knows a lot more about them than you do. It is FACT that JB and the others are soft and FACT that the metallics are harder. Period. It's not speculation or opinion. I'm sure the multitude of detailers here and on other forums that confirm this aren't just making it up. I own a BMW and have worked on plenty of them myself and can tell you that your info is incorrect.

 

[deznium]

Obviously he knows a lot more about them than you do. It is FACT that JB and the others are soft and FACT that the metallics are harder. Period. It's not speculation or opinion. I'm sure the multitude of detailers here and on other forums that confirm this aren't just making it up. I own a BMW and have worked on plenty of them myself and can tell you that your info is incorrect.

Here's is an example of swirls on metallic black BMW paint:

ScheerSpeed Detailed: Coming Soon Black Saph 335i - BMW 3-Series (E90 E92) Forum - E90Post.com



Well, I own a BMW too and I have talked to other people who own light colors which are metallic and they say the same that there paints are soft and easily get scratched. Infact, I know one dude who owns a space gray metallic BMW 2009 and he can scratch his car with his fingernails easily. Well, like I said, JB appears to look more soft because you can see almost anything on it. Now think about it logically, why would BMW make a black paint soft and make a white paint harder? Isn't that what one of the dudes here said, i.e. white paint is harder than black? And he's supposed to be a pro detailler. All of BMW paints are soft now, not sure which BMW you own, I'm talking about newer models from 2006+... Sometimes logical reasoning and asking the real source can speak more than just experience. Go hang around on BMW forums and you'll see everyone hates their BMW paint jobs, doesn't matter if their color is metallic or not.

 

[Thomas Dekany]

Here's is an example of swirls on metallic black BMW paint:

ScheerSpeed Detailed: Coming Soon Black Saph 335i - BMW 3-Series (E90 E92) Forum - E90Post.com



Well, I own a BMW too and I have talked to other people who own light colors which are metallic and they say the same that there paints are soft and easily get scratched. Infact, I know one dude who owns a space gray metallic BMW 2009 and he can scratch his car with his fingernails easily. Well, like I said, JB appears to look more soft because you can see almost anything on it. Now think about it logically, why would BMW make a black paint soft and make a white paint harder? Isn't that what one of the dudes here said, i.e. white paint is harder than black? And he's supposed to be a pro detailler. All of BMW paints are soft now, not sure which BMW you own, I'm talking about newer models from 2006+... Sometimes logical reasoning and asking the real source can speak more than just experience. Go hang around on BMW forums and you'll see everyone hates their BMW paint jobs, doesn't matter if their color is metallic or not.

You should go elsewhere if you are looking for a pissing contest. The bulk of my details are bmws. You may think that I am not a professional detailer, but I get payed for details, so that itself makes me a pro. :laugh::laugh::laugh:



Now my only question for you is this: how many cars have you done paint corrections on?



Exactly......



Those who complain about metallic paints may not even know how to properly wash their cars.



And you call yourself an amature. :bow:bow:bow



Good job man!!!! Valuable info for sure.

 

[deznium]

You should go elsewhere if you are looking for a pissing contest. The bulk of my details are bmws. You may think that I am not a professional detailer, but I get payed for details, so that itself makes me a pro. :laugh::laugh::laugh:



Now my only question for you is this: how many cars have you done paint corrections on?



Exactly......



Those who complain about metallic paints may not even know how to properly wash their cars.



And you call yourself an amature. :bow:bow:bow



Good job man!!!! Valuable info for sure.

Whatever man..

All BMW paints are soft, you can complain about jet black but all of them are soft in the end. Have you looked at any 2008 or 2009 models lately? Why would metallic clear coat be harder than non-metallic? especially on a black car? can you reason that out? Well, I have seen dudes here (mobile detailers) who claim to have 15 years of experience in washing and detailing cars. I'm talking about 2 of them but both of them couldn't clean my car in a civilized way. They scratched my wood inside and my window's glass. They used some crappy towels and created few swirls. I think I can do a better job than those guys if I buy one of those polishing machines and some good quality soap and towels. The fact is, you may have experience and what not, but I know from real people who have owned jet black and both metallic (lighter) paints. They've owned mercedez-benz metallic paints and all of them have bad paint jobs. Which BMW do you own? Which year, model and color?

 

[aclassvaleting]

i have owned more black cars than i care to reminder, BUT never again, a fussy detailer and black cars cannot live in harmony imo

 

[Thomas Dekany]

Which BMW do you own? Which year, model and color?

I own a VW. I detail a lot of bmws. Late models mostly. Obviously you have never worked on any of them, all you do is claim that they are all soft.



As far as your past detailers, I have nothing to do with them. If you hire hacks, that is on you. Are you by any chance in Florida?

 

[Thomas Dekany]

deznium - I just looked up your previous posts. In the first one you mentioned that you just joined Autopia to learn how to wash a car properly and what not.



Now you make sense. You own a new Jet Black bmw. So basically you are just trying to make yourself feel better about your purchase.:down:down:down



Instead of wanting to learn, you try discrediting people who know better than you.



I know, all paints are soft.:down:down:down

 

[brwill2005]

I guess you probably don't know much about BMW paints. All BMW paints are soft and so are Infiniti, Lexus and Acura paints. This is due to some environmental related regulations.



As to be specific, between metallic and non-metallic BMW paint, the softness and clear coating is the same. It is a misconception that jet black paint is softer. You pay those $500 for the metallic flakes, which are only visible if you're 10 inches from the car. The metallic paint does have a flake-layer on top of the paint but the clear coat (where the swirls and scratches exist) depth is the same on all BMW paints. The jet black seems more softer because it shows almost everything and slightly more than black sapphire; even the lightest scratches since it is more glossy and deep. If jet black/black sapphire had different layers of clear coats, then BMW would be dis-obeying those environmental regulations. All BMW owners don't like their paint jobs. This is a very popular topic of discussion in many BMW forums.

Thomas knows as much about paint as anyone around. Like Thomas, I am also a professional, and do this for a living. I maintain several late model BMW's. NOT ALL BMW paint is soft, and that is a fact. I honestly do not know why the JB is so soft, but it is. It could be that the guys on the BMW forums are not happy with their paint because they have know clue how to properly maintain it. With proper washing, the paint should look great indefinitely.

 

[imported_Picus]

I guess you probably don't know much about BMW paints. All BMW paints are soft and so are Infiniti, Lexus and Acura paints. This is due to some environmental related regulations.



As to be specific, between metallic and non-metallic BMW paint, the softness and clear coating is the same. It is a misconception that jet black paint is softer. You pay those $500 for the metallic flakes, which are only visible if you're 10 inches from the car. The metallic paint does have a flake-layer on top of the paint but the clear coat (where the swirls and scratches exist) depth is the same on all BMW paints. The jet black seems more softer because it shows almost everything and slightly more than black sapphire; even the lightest scratches since it is more glossy and deep. If jet black/black sapphire had different layers of clear coats, then BMW would be dis-obeying those environmental regulations. All BMW owners don't like their paint jobs. This is a very popular topic of discussion in many BMW forums.

It's a shame this thread is going to go this route, but I guess there is nothing to be done about it.



Before I go on, some points. Not all BMW owners dislike their paint jobs. We can both find examples of people on e90post, mpost, bimmerfest, etc that dislike and like their paint. That's anecdotal evidence, it's like saying all BMW's are unreliable because some guys on bimmerfest say they are. On that same note, you can go on ANY car forum and find guys who hate their paint. Infinit, Acura, Mercedes, BMW, Lambo, Ferrari, Porsche, it doesn't matter; someone somewhere is going to complain. Which leads me to my next point.

Which BMW do you own? Which year, model and color?

Usually I'd say this doesn't matter, but if it'll help prove I have some experience, I own a 2007 BMW e92 335i in sparkling graphite and a mini cooper s (2006) in pepper white. I've also owned a 2002 330xi in titanium silver and a 2000 M3 in imola red. My current BMW has ~50k km and I've owned it since December 2006. I picked it up in Munich in October 2006.



In the last two years I've worked on over 150 current model BMWs. By worked on, I mean compounded. So in terms of detailing I'd say I have at least as much experience as the next guy. I can say with no hesitation that in my experience not all BMW paint is soft. Is a lot of it? Sure. Is all of it? No. Space Grey, Sparkling Graphite, Montego Blue, Tasman, Bluewater, TIaG, Deep Sea Blue, Mineral White and Cashmere Silver are all on the hard side of average. Of course average is relative. I like to think that since I compound just under 400 cars a year I have a decent grasp on "average paint hardness".



So here's the thing; you don't have to believe me, but at some point when enough people that do this day in and say out are telling you you're incorrect, you may have to re-evaluate your position. This isn't a "the world is flat" type argument, we're just telling you that in our experience, whether it's minute or vast, BMW's flat colours tend to be "softer" than the metallics. If I were alone in this opinion I may seek further evidence, because it'd be possible that I was wrong; but I'm not alone. Between this forum, dc, dw, etc, 95%+ of detailers have agreed that the flat bmw colours are softer. Are we all wrong?

 

[deznium]

What is your definition of a 'soft paint'? Because I know for a fact that the number of clear coat layers is same on both metallic and non metallic paints.

 

[deznium]

deznium - I just looked up your previous posts. In the first one you mentioned that you just joined Autopia to learn how to wash a car properly and what not.



Now you make sense. You own a new Jet Black bmw. So basically you are just trying to make yourself feel better about your purchase.:down:down:down



Instead of wanting to learn, you try discrediting people who know better than you.



I know, all paints are soft.:down:down:down

Man, you really seem to have a twisted mind. Now why would I think like that? You're just trying to put words in my mouth. I own 2 other cars, in metallic paint.

 

[Bigpoppa3346]

What is your definition of a 'soft paint'? Because I know for a fact that the number of clear coat layers is same on both metallic and non metallic paints.

What does the number of clear coat layers have anything to do with paint hardness?



IME Jet Black BMWs, like everyone else said, have much softer paint than their metallic counterparts.

 

[BigJimZ28]

What is your definition of a 'soft paint'? Because I know for a fact that the number of clear coat layers is same on both metallic and non metallic paints.

:funnypost

 

[WhiteStripes]

So what about using a fine/soft clay to get rid of the polish residue instead of an MF towel? Or foam it real wquick with a proper foam cannon, and pressue wash it? Basically after polish, touch free wash the thing, then apply your favorite most durable carnauba by hand, after conditioning with lotion for weeks hahaha.

 

[Bigpoppa3346]

So what about using a fine/soft clay to get rid of the polish residue instead of an MF towel? Or foam it real wquick with a proper foam cannon, and pressue wash it? Basically after polish, touch free wash the thing, then apply your favorite most durable carnauba by hand, after conditioning with lotion for weeks hahaha.

I claying off any residue would probably induce 10x more marring than wiping it with a soft MF.



A foam cannon rinse wouldn't be a bad idea, but drying would be another chance to induce some marring. A CRSpotless system would be great for something like this.



The right applicator with a carnauba shouldn't really cause any marring, the 3 colored foam, oval ones are really nice.

 

[Thomas Dekany]

Man, you really seem to have a twisted mind. Now why would I think like that? You're just trying to put words in my mouth. I own 2 other cars, in metallic paint.

You may think that I have a twisted mind... but why? Because I don't agree with your false assumptions? You are like the guys who express their opinions of loudspeakers they have never actually heard.



I do wish you luck with that car, because if you don't like seeing swirls in it you will have a very hard time keeping them away.:bigups

 

[WhiteStripes]

I claying off any residue would probably induce 10x more marring than wiping it with a soft MF.



A foam cannon rinse wouldn't be a bad idea, but drying would be another chance to induce some marring. A CRSpotless system would be great for something like this.



The right applicator with a carnauba shouldn't really cause any marring, the 3 colored foam, oval ones are really nice.

Oh, the drying would have been taken care of by a blower, but that CR system woul dbe nice too.



And I was thinking with the Clay having a perfectly smooth surface to it that it wouldn't mar, but I suppose it'd just drag the residue, so yeah that is out.



3 colored foam being the one commonly referred to as German foam applicator?

 

[deznium]

You may think that I have a twisted mind... but why? Because I don't agree with your false assumptions? You are like the guys who express their opinions of loudspeakers they have never actually heard.



I do wish you luck with that car, because if you don't like seeing swirls in it you will have a very hard time keeping them away.:bigups

Sure, I'll take that as a challenge. Removing swirls on black car is not a big deal IMO. I've gone through some really tough times, including getting my PhD, which took me like 6 years after by Undergrad, so doing some work on a car over a weekend is no biggie. I don't care if it's 100% swirl free, as long as I can get rid of most of them, I'll be fine. I'm planning to maintain the car myself and not go to those junk car washing places. I've had some bad experience with my other cars as well, which have metallic paints and those are luxury cars as well.

 

[imported_Picus]

What is your definition of a 'soft paint'? Because I know for a fact that the number of clear coat layers is same on both metallic and non metallic paints.

It's hard to define "soft paint", but as a general definition I'd say it is paint that shows holograms or hazing from compounding when using combination of polishes/pads that don't normally leave holograms/hazing. Just as an example, say I was working on a Porsche Carrera S, 2008, flat black - now the paint on those isn't "hard", but it isn't "soft" either, say it has moderate swirling. I'd expect that I could set about that with say, Power Finish or SIP on an orange pad, then finish down clean with FPII or 106FF on a white pad. If I was being really specific I might even follow with 8rd on a blue or grey, but that would be icing on the cake so to speak. The car would be hologram/hazing free after the white pad step (and yes I am assuming we're doing prepsol wipedowns). Now on a jb BMW, in my experience, it is very hard to finish down "clean" with any pad that has mechanical action, such as an orange or white pad, no matter which polish you use. On the JB cars I've done I've finished with a variety of grey/blue/red pads and very light polishes, like FPII. To further this example, that combo will remove light holograms on the jb BMW, but on most cars a combo that light would do nothing at all, the cutting action it has is minuscule. On a car like a black e63 amg something like fpii/grey would be like throwing a pillow at a brick wall. So the mercedes I would classify as hard paint, the porsche as average, and the bmw as soft. It's more complicated, and you get a feel for it quickly when you work on so many cars a year, but that's the general idea.



Unfortunately it's impossible to categorize them all and in a lot of cases people have varying experiences; but in the case of JB BMW's it seems like most people (and I mean the vast majority) agree they are "soft" in the sense that they are easy to marr, and hard to finish down clean on, since most compounding of any soft will leave buffer marks.

So what about using a fine/soft clay to get rid of the polish residue instead of an MF towel? Or foam it real wquick with a proper foam cannon, and pressue wash it? Basically after polish, touch free wash the thing, then apply your favorite most durable carnauba by hand, after conditioning with lotion for weeks hahaha.

I agree with bigpoppa, clay on JB BMWs tends to leave marring. When I am working on them I spray the compounded areas with ONR/water and let them cool, then wipe it off with a clean plush mf. JB BMWs and some Subaru's some of the only cars I've run into where using a soft, dry, clean mf will sometimes leave "rainbow marring", which I've described as super light marring that is less a scratch and more a distortion of the CC. You can see that in both tdekany's and my pictures of jb bmws in this thread: http://gtaindetail.com/pics/335123106/k.jpg



Oh, on layers of clear coat - yes, they all seem to have similar paint depths. I've measured most of the ones I've worked on and they all seem to be in the 6 mil area, regardless of colour. Obviously in my case I don't think thickness has anything to do with hardness. I've run into impossibly hard clear coats that were only a couple mil, and ridiculously soft resprays that were 10+ mil.