Polymer 'waxes' and german paint?

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imported_Indy YZF

New member
Im enclosing a quite from Larry Reynolds of the famed carcareonline.com. Larry has been an outspoken advocate for car finish detailing for several years now, and is well respected in the field....So, when he comes up with the following statement, which seems to totally disagree with the findings of most autopians, I need to ask, hey, whats going on here! If anybody has any theories, Id love to hear...Thanks.



>>...The polymer-based waxes tend to last longer, yet do not seem to give the same depth of shine, as do the Carnauba waxes. As a general rule, depth of shine and longevity are opposite ends of the same scale. Polymer waxes are also usually less sensitive to excess car wash. They do seem to be somewhat more hydroscopic (absorb water and become cloudy) than the organic waxes. If you are using a polymer based wax on a German paint and have hazing or clouding of the wax, about the only thing that will work is to strip the polymer wax and rewax with a Carnauba based wax. German paints hate polymer-based waxes. I have spoken to paint chemists, the Glazurit people, Porsche, BMW and M/B people and to date have not gotten a viable reason for this. I have gotten a lot of mumbling and shuffling of feet, but no hard and fast answers. The American and Japanese paints can tolerate polymer waxes. The German paints just don't seem to react well with most of these products. <<
 
Many of the ideas that carcareonline talks about are very "old school". Paint technology and car-care products have seen a great transformation from the "good ole' days". The idea of polymers hazing german paints is a myth, there is no factual basis to back it up. Not to say it's never happened, but it's not a regular occurance like he portrays. Sikkens, the paint supplier to many german auto makers, has approved useage of polymer products on their finishes. Many of our members have german cars and use polymer products and there are no problems. There are a lot of myths and wivestales in car-care, but in reality they are just that......myths.
 
I don't agree with this, I have been using a no-name polymer sealant for the last 7 years on my car which was assembled and painted in Ford German Special Vehicles plant and my car still looks like the day it rolled out of the factory!



I have tried my polymer on several peoples car including various BMW's and Mercedes and they looked great, old and new cars.



regards,

Tarkan
 
Hmm....thats an interesting quote. From my personal experience using Zaino on german paint for the last two years I would have to disagree. I have never experienced this "hazing" phenom. Now it is true that perceptions of depth and reflectivity vary with individual preference. I love the look of Z on my cars. Having used carnauba waxes in the past they do look different from polymers, not necessarily better just different. What looks best is more a matter of taste than anything else.
 
Lets See, Ive Put Zaino On a 2001 Black MBZ ML320, 2000 Black MBZ ML430, 2002 Red BMW 330cic, and a 2003 Designo Silver SL500.



I have never had a streaking or hazing or any Problems On Any Of These Cars At All.



Z on German paint works great!
 
I guessing this was before BMW began clear coating their finishes. Todays BMW's all use the powder coating clear coat that is baked on. Personally, I love carnauba's for my finish, but I don't mind detailing every 3-6 months either...
 
In the UK, BMW (BMW UK Ltd) recommend the use of Autoglym products, which are polymer based. I cannot see why BMW et al would have dramatically different paint to other car manufactures from around the world.



Steven
 
The affect that the full blown Klasse treatment had on the metallic blue of my friend Robbin's 325is was astounding. Really, no one could believe the difference it made, including me. Looked really great.



Robert
 
paul e said:
German paints hate polymer-based waxes......German paints just don't seem to react well with most of these products. <<
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Really?!?!? Yeah, right - that's why Meguiar's private lables for Mercedes Benz, and uses silicone polymers in most of their waxes, including No. 26, both paste and liquid.



ShowroomLincoln is right on the money - these ideas are very "old school". I had a neighbor that use to be that old school, too, and only belived in using a carnuba wax every month. That is until he bought a new BMW off the lot that already had a dealer-applied polymer sealant, and wax utteerly amazed when it was still beading water eight months after he bought. He kept asking me what I used, and after initially trying No. 20, he eventually ended up a Klasse user.



carcareonline.com and Larry Reynolds aren't the only ones though spreading myths about polymer sealants. Anyone ready Griot's information on their website or in their catalogs? His information is even more incorrect than carcareonline.com.



This is a quote from Griot's Garage: If you are using silicone based polishes, you will not experience three months of protection. No, Richard, we're generally getting a bit more than three months. From his "Detailers Handbook" : I'm often asked why we don't offer a synthetic wax or paint sealant. While these products tout a longer period of protection, they don't provide the rich color, depth and clarity of our camauba-based waxes. Synthetic products are created from polymers and acrylic resins. These products are especially poor on darker finishes where the clarity is just not there. (You'll easily see hazing with this type of product.) REALLY? Any Klasse, Platinum, or Zaino users want to give this guy a lesson in depth and clarity????



But wait.....there's more!> In a nutshell, if you don't care about your paint, and you need protection from the harsh cleaning chemicals found in car washes a paint sealant may be the way to go. However, when the surface has been washed comedy, by hand with Car Wash, I've seen no long term protection by going with a paint sealant verses our Best Of Show Wax-. In addition, the color, depth, and clarity of Best of Show Wax'* is without equal. Best of Show is nothing special. I couldn't tell the difference in depth or reflectivity from that of Meguiar's No. 26 paste wax on four different cars I tried it on, two of them medium to dark colors, and Meguiar's No. 26 outlasted Best of Show. In fact, I couldn't tell the difference from No. 20 Polymer Sealant, and I've had No. 20 Polymer Sealant last eight months to a year.



Someone needs to tell Richard Griot that his Best of Show wouldn't win a contest against even better polymer sealants like Klasse or Zaino.
 
Well, Lamborgini continuously has Griots as their Concours sponsor...but I digress...(Curious as to why none of the top auto manufacturers ever have a "polymer based" wax as their sponsor? or have I just not noticed them? (Shrugs)



I dislike the BOS wax, its very difficult to get off, but I highly praise their Carnauba wax, next to P21S, its my 2nd favorite wax in the "Carnauba" world...P21S just doesn't have the longevity that Griots Carnauba has...but I do NOT like the BOS wax.



One thing is certain with men and ego's...whatever we're using at the time, "is the best" ;)
 
I'm wondering if Griot's has any monetary involvement with that Lambo sponsorship...and remember, Richard is also the gentleman who believes that claying with an air tool or PC is not only acceptable, but recommended.... :nixweiss
 
Ripsnort said:
Well, Lamborgini continuously has Griots as their Concours sponsor...but I digress...(Curious as to why none of the top auto manufacturers ever have a "polymer based" wax as their sponsor? or have I just not noticed them? (Shrugs)



I dislike the BOS wax, its very difficult to get off, but I highly praise their Carnauba wax, next to P21S, its my 2nd favorite wax in the "Carnauba" world...P21S just doesn't have the longevity that Griots Carnauba has...but I do NOT like the BOS wax.



One thing is certain with men and ego's...whatever we're using at the time, "is the best" ;)
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You have a point there.



geekysteve said:
I'm wondering if Griot's has any monetary involvement with that Lambo sponsorship...and remember, Richard is also the gentleman who believes that claying with an air tool or PC is not only acceptable, but recommended.... :nixweiss
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Not my idea of proper paint care either.........
 
YOU know, this is exactly the reaction I expected...And I agree with you all...Now, would anybody be interested in taking Larry on, ie, composing a group Autopia response to his statement, publicly available on his website? Ive found him to be generally a good guy, but can be a bit cantankerous when questioned about his ingrained beliefs, and I for one would love to expose the myth, in his name, and I bet Im not alone. He also feels as old fashioned about machines...When telling him that I found that his negative machine comments should have been aimed more at rotaries than at orbitals, he interrupts with, 'hey, its just a matter of whether you like circular or orbital shaped swirls better'...Ha Ha Ha...very funny..And, very wrong..And for statements like these two, Id love to challenge him openly and publicly. He has a position of some authority as hes been publishing stuff for maybe a decade or more, and is well known....I dont know if theres any point in any of this, but I do feel theres more value in publicly pointing out the fallacy in it, then in just carrying out some kind of vendetta. In the name of truth!
 
paul e said:
YOU know, this is exactly the reaction I expected...And I agree with you all...Now, would anybody be interested in taking Larry on, ie, composing a group Autopia response to his statement, publicly available on his website? Ive found him to be generally a good guy, but can be a bit cantankerous when questioned about his ingrained beliefs, and I for one would love to expose the myth, in his name, and I bet Im not alone. He also feels as old fashioned about machines...When telling him that I found that his negative machine comments should have been aimed more at rotaries than at orbitals, he interrupts with, 'hey, its just a matter of whether you like circular or orbital shaped swirls better'...Ha Ha Ha...very funny..And, very wrong..And for statements like these two, Id love to challenge him openly and publicly. He has a position of some authority as hes been publishing stuff for maybe a decade or more, and is well known....I dont know if theres any point in any of this, but I do feel theres more value in publicly pointing out the fallacy in it, then in just carrying out some kind of vendetta. In the name of truth!
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Count me in.
 
Well, if you want to strap on Larry that's fine but you'd better fly it past David B if you're going to use Autopia as some sort of personal validation or public battle ground.



You also may want to engage a chemist or auto paint developer/engineer prior to "exposing the myth, in his name". It's entirely possible that Larry knows more than you do about auto paint and may very well have his sources inside those companies who can validate his claims. Are you in the same position? What access to information do you have that Larry doesn't?



Seems to me the only "proof" anyone here has is circumstantial. If you want to challenge Car Care Specialties personally, fine by me. But before you set out on your crusade, make damned sure you yourself cannot be assailed. The easiest opponent to defeat is one filled with overconfidence.



Tread lightly, friends.
 
bretfraz said:
Well, if you want to strap on Larry that's fine but you'd better fly it past David B if you're going to use Autopia as some sort of personal validation or public battle ground.



You also may want to engage a chemist or auto paint developer/engineer prior to "exposing the myth, in his name". It's entirely possible that Larry knows more than you do about auto paint and may very well have his sources inside those companies who can validate his claims. Are you in the same position? What access to information do you have that Larry doesn't?



Seems to me the only "proof" anyone here has is circumstantial. If you want to challenge Car Care Specialties personally, fine by me. But before you set out on your crusade, make damned sure you yourself cannot be assailed. The easiest opponent to defeat is one filled with overconfidence.



Tread lightly, friends.
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Hate to admit when someone else has a point, but you do have a point. Oh well, I guess I'm not really in the mood for an arguement anyway.
 
Are you in the same position? What access to information do you have that Larry doesn't?
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Look..I have no interest in attacking Larry personally...But, he is a big mouthpiece in the field, and hes been spouting information which is practically universally discounted by our members here....And I frequently buy product from Larry too, as his prices and selection arent bad, and hes in an adjacent state...But, when he gets on the phone, and proceeds to ridicule the idea that Anyone can use an Orbital, yet, without destroying the paint, its just plain ludicrous, as is his claim that German paints dont react well to polymer products, and will cloud over and make life miserable, etc, etc. These notions just dont hold water...But alas, no, I do not have proof, any more than does anyone else here who adamantly believes his ideas are folly. To each his own....But as a field spokesman of some note, he has a responsibility to get it right, and to be more sure of the facts....When his ideas are so universally disbelieved, it would behoove him to get with the times, and get his facts straight. Hes been detailing alot longer than I have, and you want to be able to trust someone like that. Too bad his wisdom contains so much filler that must be weeded out.
 
Zaino clouded my paint........so I guess he is right..........lol



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