Need advice for expanding my detailing routine

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Bill1975

New member
Hi folks! I've been hanging out on vwvortex and passatworld quite a bit and several people have advised me to check this site out. I've been reading this site for quite a while as well as several other detailing forums, but yet I still find it a bit overwhelming. So, since it's getting late for me I will get to the point:



I have a black 2004 VW Passat. I wash every one to two weeks. About a month ago I did a wash, clay and carnauba wax. Now, since Im new to detailing I want to try and add things little by little so I dont get in over my head. I'm in need of another wax job, so I'm wondering what else I can do to protect my paint and help it look better. I've been contemplating one of the Mothers or Meguiar's "Three Step" detailing systems (Pre wax cleaner, sealer/glaze, and wax). However, a few questions arise - 1) The pre wax cleaner, polish, and glaze products all sound similar. They all claim to help smooth the paint and hide/remove swirl marks and water spots. So what is the difference, and how many do I need? 2) Should I get a polish anyway, or is the three step enough? 3) How helpful is a sealer and does it help prolong wax life? and 4) Since from what I understand, synthetic wax and carnauba wax are different, is it worth the trouble to layer on both? If so, which goes first?



Thanks for anyones help. If it matters, I don't have a power buffer, so for now I will be doing everything by hand. I figure the prewax cleaner will do just that, but I may try claying again, just for practice, I dont think it can hurt, if done properly. Again, as much as I've read, many of the products out there seem similar, and there are so many its a bit overwhelming, so I appreciate any advice.
 
The three step systems from either are nice. You need to read DavidB's guide on detailing. A sealant should last a long time (longer than a wax) topping a sealant with wax is a personal preference. The wax is a sacraficial lamb so to speak, once the wax is gone you still have the sealant protecting. At this point you can just apply another layer of wax.
 
Bill1975- Wlcome to Autopia! Yeah, it's easy to let this stuff get overwhelming and it's hard to know where good cut-off points are.



Let's see...'04 Passat. Most people find VW paint to be pretty hard. That makes it tough to get marring (swirls/cobwebs/etc.) out, especially by hand.



.. I've been contemplating one of the Mothers or Meguiar's "Three Step" detailing systems (Pre wax cleaner, sealer/glaze, and wax). However, a few questions arise - 1) The pre wax cleaner, polish, and glaze products all sound similar. They all claim to help smooth the paint and hide/remove swirl marks and water spots. So what is the difference, and how many do I need? 2) Should I get a polish anyway, or is the three step enough? 3) How helpful is a sealer and does it help prolong wax life? and 4) Since from what I understand, synthetic wax and carnauba wax are different, is it worth the trouble to layer on both? If so, which goes first?
I dunno about the Mothers, but the Meguiar's 3-step is all nonabrasive stuff. That sounds clearcoat friendly but it also means you won't *really* remove any marring, you'll just hide a little bit of it and it will "come back". Not the end of the world but you oughta know.



Step 1 is a cleaner, good idea. Step two is a nonabrasive polish, maybe not the best idea. This is where you might try a mildly abrasive polish (there are zillions of them, I'd probably recommend something like 1z Paint Polish or Meguiar's #80 Speed Glaze or Mother's Power Polish, see what others say). Then you could apply the Step 2 polish if you aren't pooped but I'd probably skip it.



Sealants are really just a long lasting synthetic version of wax. You apply them before the wax if you're using both. But there are some very long lasting waxes (e.g., stuff from Collinite) that are pretty user-friendly. Some sealants are sorta a pain, and most are unforgiving of any marring that you didn't fully remove- it'll show more than with waxes.



Note that you can do one panel every time you wash and eventually get the whole car done without spending days on end working on this stuff.



See what you think after reading the e-book.
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Thanks for everyones replies. I read the autopia e-book and it has cleared up a few things, but i still have some questions. It sounds like after I wash and clay (if needed) I need to use the pre wax cleaner. After that I could use "step 2" which is a glaze. heres where I get confused:



1) It sounds like glaze is basically like a polish only less abrasive and only fills imprefections, it doesnt remove them. SO, should I just use one, or both? it sounds like the pre-wax cleaner is actually both a cleaner and a polish, so why polish twice? I have a few swirl marks and scratches. Mothers scratch remover hasnt helped much, even thoughthey are somewhat light.



2) Once I have done the glaze and/or polish, how neccesary is it to use a sealant? This I take it is just one more form of protection that can only help, right? I noticed that the step two of the Mothers (and I thing Megs) system is a glaze and sealant, so again, no need to do the sealant twice?



3) In light of 1 and 2 it sounds like Im getting cleaner, polish, glaze and sealant from just the first two "steps". If so Im assuming this is just to make things simpler for newbies (like me) but better results can be obtained by using seperate, or different specialized products.



4) It sounds like the "cleaner wax" that came with my clay kit is a bit abrasive compared to a straight wax product. is this the main drawback, or is this as good as a regular carnauba?



Sorry this is so long, but I'm trying to figure this out as best I can. it sounds like I should stick with one of these simpler systems until I get some more experience and personal preference under my belt before buying the more expensive products, especially polishes that could be abrasive. Interestingly enough, having never done anything other than washing my car before, I was impressed with how good a basic clay and wax looked after washing, so things can only get better.
 
i would really like that response too, i have a 02 passat european model , and my paint too is really hard, it has light scratches but they dont come out lightly so they;re very hard, enyways, try to get a orbital buffer, it takes a lot of time, taking out the glaze, wax and cleaners, i do all of that, the car looks a lot different but still i have some light swirls (god i hate them), enyways good luck with ur car.
 
Bill1975 said:
1) It sounds like glaze is basically like a polish only less abrasive and only fills imprefections, it doesnt remove them. SO, should I just use one, or both? it sounds like the pre-wax cleaner is actually both a cleaner and a polish, so why polish twice? I have a few swirl marks and scratches. Mothers scratch remover hasnt helped much, even thoughthey are somewhat light.
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Seems like everyone uses terms differently so your confusion is understandable.



The idea here is that you use a paint cleaner to nonabrasively clean everything off the paint so you can see what you're dealing with. Practically speaking, yeah, you can often just use an abrasive polish and do two jobs at once.



Trying to remove marring from hard paint is tough, let alone by hand. If *I* were doing it by hand, I'd first accept *that the results wouldn't be perfect*. I'd use two products that are out of production but can still be found with a little searching: 3M Perfect-It III Rubbing Compound pn 05933 (don't let the name scare you, it's an especially mild product) and PI-III Machine Glaze pn 05937.



2) Once I have done the glaze and/or polish, how neccesary is it to use a sealant? This I take it is just one more form of protection that can only help, right? I noticed that the step two of the Mothers (and I thing Megs) system is a glaze and sealant, so again, no need to do the sealant twice?
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This is where the terminology gets goofy. The second steps are (at least the Meguiar's version) just glazes, despite their names. It'll help hide some of the stuff the polishing didn't get out. Sure won't hurt anything.



3) In light of 1 and 2 it sounds like Im getting cleaner, polish, glaze and sealant from just the first two "steps". If so Im assuming this is just to make things simpler for newbies (like me) but better results can be obtained by using seperate, or different specialized products.
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It's easy to get too caught up in specialized products and multiple steps. IMO you could almost always just polish with the two products above and apply wax. Wouldn't look quite as nice as a more involved process but you might be surprised.



4) It sounds like the "cleaner wax" that came with my clay kit is a bit abrasive compared to a straight wax product. is this the main drawback, or is this as good as a regular carnauba?
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Most consumer level cleaner waxes from companies like Mother's and Meguiar's are actually nonabrasive. But they don't last all that long. If you're *not* using a glaze step (the cleaner wax would clean it off) then sure, use the cleaner wax after the polishing and consider topping the cleaner wax with a straight wax, which you could do after the next wash.
 
I used Meguiar's step 1 by hand and step 2 with PC, after Mothers clay. Worked grate but the paint I was working on was in very good condition almost no scratches. Meguiar's step 1 and 2 will not remove any scratches. Step 1 - I think was good idea after the clay, try Mothers PowerPolish maybe if you need to, instead of Megs step 2. Use 845 as a wax works NICE:) 2 coats or more :) I’m gonna try MPP on weekend on my friends car which has some scratches (small), I see how that works.
 
Accumulator said:
Trying to remove marring from hard paint is tough, let alone by hand. If *I* were doing it by hand, I'd first accept *that the results wouldn't be perfect*. I'd use two products that are out of production but can still be found with a little searching: 3M Perfect-It III Rubbing Compound pn 05933 (don't let the name scare you, it's an especially mild product) and PI-III Machine Glaze pn 05937.
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I know it wont be perfect, I'm mearly trying to improve on what I did last time. Given that, I dont think I will be too disappointed either way. I have seen a 3M Rubbing Compund in the stores. Dont know if this is the same one you refer to. Does this actually remove the scrathes or just hide them? I found with the Mothers remover I could at least cover some scratches up but they were never really removed. Speaking of such things, would this help with etched on water spots> I have a few that washing and Quick Detaler wont remove. I've read that vinegar will help remove them, though I dont know if I should dilute it first (I tried 50/50 and it didnt really work)



Accumulator said:
The second steps are (at least the Meguiar's version) just glazes, despite their names. It'll help hide some of the stuff the polishing didn't get out. Sure won't hurt anything.



It's easy to get too caught up in specialized products and multiple steps. IMO you could almost always just polish with the two products above and apply wax. Wouldn't look quite as nice as a more involved process but you might be surprised.
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I checked and the Megs version step 2 is called a Polish. So again I dont know if Megs step 2 polish is that different from the Mothers step 2 glaze/sealant. Again this is where confusion over terms arises (glaze vs polish). If there isnt that much difference, I may just flip a coin and see.... Someone else suggested Mothers Power Polish however It is for use with a machine buffer, and I dont have that as of yet. How would Megs #80 Speed glaze compare to the "step 2" of the other systems? In the description it says it "removes" light defects. If, as I've read in various places these products only cover up defects, I'm thinking I should try the rubbing compound with the bigger scratches.



As for wax I have never heard of "845" and dont know who makes it. Mothers FX Synwax looks good, and Im unsure of any appreciable difference between Megs NXT wax and Gold Class Clear Coat Car Wax. (I'm going to check the reviews section)
 
Funny, I just got done looking at his (I think its a he...) website. I got a lot of valuable info there (much of it links to autopia)
 
I've just spent a good part of my day reading this site and others. It just doesn't end does it? :)



Anyway, here's what I'm considering:



Wash

Clay

Pre-Wax Cleaner

Remove scratches with 3M rubbing comound (have heard this mentioned mroe than once, supposedly better than mothers scratch remover or scratch-x)

Vinegar to get out a couple of light but stubborn water spots

"Step 2" of Megs system or #80 Speed Glaze (any recommendations on this?)

Wax with Megs NXT or Mothers FX Synwax



I don't have a Porter Cable or other power buffer and it seems some products are designed for use with these tools, so I have to keep in mind its going to be an "all hand" type of situation. It sounds the two waxes I listed are good synthetic waxes. Any idea on how long they last? Also, a big issue is that if I want more depth, can I add a carnauba at a later time? say if I wash again a week or two later, or do I have to do it after the first wax? How long would I need to wait?



I've seen a LOT of other products that look interesting (Klasse All in One, Megs swirl mark remover, and a seemingly infinate variety of polishes and "blemish" removers of variable strengths) But it seems this is a good way to go for a starter.
 
Bill1975 said:
I have seen a 3M Rubbing Compund in the stores. Dont know if this is the same one you refer to. Does this actually remove the scrathes or just hide them?
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3M makes a *lot* of different RCs and only two are suitable for what you're doing. The PI-III and the PI-II Fine Cut Rubbing Compound. But the dust of the latter is carcinogenic so I sorta try to avoid it. Don't buy any RC without running it past us first as the vast majority of them will ruin your paint in no time (no foolin').



etched on water spots> I have a few that washing and Quick Detaler wont remove. I've read that vinegar will help remove them, though I dont know if I should dilute it first (I tried 50/50 and it didnt really work)
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Straight vinegar is more effective than diluted and plenty mild enough for your paint. Also try clay, paint cleaners like Deep Crystal Step #1, or the abrasive products we're discussing. I'd try the straight (distilled white) vinegar.







I checked and the Megs version step 2 is called a Polish. So again I dont know if Megs step 2 polish is that different from the Mothers step 2 glaze/sealant. Again this is where confusion over terms arises (glaze vs polish). If there isnt that much difference, I may just flip a coin and see.... Someone else suggested Mothers Power Polish however It is for use with a machine buffer, and I dont have that as of yet. How would Megs #80 Speed glaze compare to the "step 2" of the other systems? In the description it says it "removes" light defects. If, as I've read in various places these products only cover up defects, I'm thinking I should try the rubbing compound with the bigger scratches.
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Meguiar's drives me crazy with their weird uses of certain words, usually with regard to getting rid of marring. I take it you want to literally eliminate the scratches/swirls/etc. and that'll take abrasive, mechanical processes. The Step #2 won't do this. The #80 (just forget about their names, it'll save you some frustration ;) ) *will* remove some light marring but it's awfully mild. If you get the (correct) 3M RC and MG you might not need the #80. #80 is good, but besides being mild it also hides a little so it can be tricky to know if you *really* got rid of everything that bugs you.



...I have never heard of "845" and dont know who makes it. Mothers FX Synwax looks good, and Im unsure of any appreciable difference between Megs NXT wax and Gold Class Clear Coat Car Wax. (I'm going to check the reviews section)
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845 is made by COLLINITE . Their waxes last for a very long time and bead like nothing else you've ever seen. Most people find 845 to be user-friendly but the smell isn't too great.



Remove scratches with 3M rubbing comound (have heard this mentioned mroe than once, supposedly better than mothers scratch remover or scratch-x)

Vinegar to get out a couple of light but stubborn water spots

"Step 2" of Megs system or #80 Speed Glaze (any recommendations on this?)
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After the 3M RC you'll need a milder product as the RC will leave some slight marks of its own ("micromarring" or "compound haze"). This is where the 3M Perfect-It III Machine Glaze 05937 comes in (don't worry, it works fine by hand). AFAIK, the PI-3000 Swirl Mark Remover is about the same thing, but make sure you're getting the right stuff. The #80 might be a little too mild for this, or it might work fine, I never tried it after the RC.



If you can't find the right 3M products, post back so we can help figure out a different route. You *DO NOT* want to use the wrong stuff.



The Deep Crystal Step #2 is a purely optional product that *might* make things look a little better if used after all the abrasive products have already been used. It would go between them and the wax.



Just use any way (NXT, or whatever) and see how you like it. Guess I'd use the NXT if you already have some. Yeah, you can just add another LSP (last Step Product, i.e., "wax") after the next wash. You can do that for a long time if you like, just keep adding something. But I'd buy some Collinite ;) Either their 845 or, if you like pastes, their 476S, which I use regularly.
 
I picked up the Megs Deep Crystal Paint Cleaner and a bottle of the Mothers FX Syn Wax. I read a review in the review area here and it seemed pretty good so I picked it over the Meguiars NXT. The rubbing compound I saw was the 3M PI-II (Perfect-It II). As far as this goes, if I understand correctly, this is a bit stronger than the Mothers Scratch remover and I only plan on using this in a few spots, where as the glaze/polishing that comes after is for the whole car. Speaking of which, I couldnt find Megs #80, but they did have Megs #7. If I cant get 80 I'm wondering if 7 would be good or just stick with the Deep Crystal Step 2 Polish. I'd really like to get this done this weekend, so Im not sure that I want to order online and wait, but if its THAT much better I just might.



One more thing - just out of curiosity, if the Synthetic wax, or sealer lasts longer, why wouldnt one put the carnauba wax on before the synth wax? Would that not help it last longer, since the synthetic wax would be "sealing" it in?
 
Bill1975 said:
I picked up the Megs Deep Crystal Paint Cleaner and a bottle of the Mothers FX Syn Wax. I read a review in the review area here and it seemed pretty good so I picked it over the Meguiars NXT. The rubbing compound I saw was the 3M PI-II (Perfect-It II). As far as this goes, if I understand correctly, this is a bit stronger than the Mothers Scratch remover and I only plan on using this in a few spots, where as the glaze/polishing that comes after is for the whole car. Speaking of which, I couldnt find Megs #80, but they did have Megs #7. If I cant get 80 I'm wondering if 7 would be good or just stick with the Deep Crystal Step 2 Polish. I'd really like to get this done this weekend, so Im not sure that I want to order online and wait, but if its THAT much better I just might.



One more thing - just out of curiosity, if the Synthetic wax, or sealer lasts longer, why wouldnt one put the carnauba wax on before the synth wax? Would that not help it last longer, since the synthetic wax would be "sealing" it in?
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The PI-II RC *assuming it's the right PI-II RC* (I dunno if they made more than one) is OK, just don't breath the dust from it. The bad news is that you'll need another, milder abrasive after using that RC. The #7 won't substitute for #80 because the #7 is nonabrasive and basically the same as your Deep Crystal Step #2. You *might* be able to use the Mothers Scratch Remover after the RC, but I'd sure try a small, out of the way spot with both products before finalizing my plans. Be sure to work the RC enough for it to break down (not until it's dry however).



The problem with using a sealant after other products is that many/most sealants don't bond well to just anything. Most waxes aer sorta oily and so most sealants won't stick to them.
 
Well, 7 hours later Im done. Unfortunately I didnt get started untill 11 AM and it was a bit over cast. The sun started setting by the time I was done so I dont have a clear view on how good everything looks. The 3m stuff didnt hreally do much better. It hides stuff a bit but you can still tell its there.



What I did was:



wash, clay, scratch removal, paint cleaner, polish (steps 1 and 2 of meguiars three step), mothers fx synwax.



And unfortunatley my covered parking spot is at the end of the row, which means that my car is now getting wet since it started raining about 10 minutes ago.. :angry



Stopped raining, toweled car off. It looked like the car had been somewhat "misted" The rain didnt hit it directly, and the beading was small. I mention this because Im used to larger beading in direct rains. Again, from what I can tell the car looks ok, but hopefully "the sun will come out, tomorrow...." I sure hope this was worth it. if it looks really good I may do a wash next weekend and top it with carnauba just for kicks.
 
If I haven't said it yet, Accumulator, thanks a bunch for your help, it has definately cleared some things up! :xyxthumbs



I took a look at it today, and it looks good, but I cant say Im that knocked out. It had a definate glossy look to it. A little bit of a 'wet" look, but mostly glossy. I think I definately like the depth carnauba has. I'll try that this weekend. This afternons rain seemed to bead up pretty well with only minimal waterspotting that Im gonna try and QD out. Standing back a bit, even in the sun, it looks like the 3m helped more than I though, however the evidence of the scratching is still there.



Thanks!
 
Just remember that propper prep is the key to that "knock-out" look. Sealants and waxes enhance the look of paint and protect, but if the paint has marring there is nothing the sealant or wax can do to disguise that. Since you're working by hand it will be very, very difficult to get out the marring entirely. It does sound like you're doing well given the choice to work by hand. Not sure if you've mentioned it but have you given any thought to a PC? Just wondering. :)
 
I have, and after yesterday, I definately think it would also make things quicker with less strain on my arms and hands. I do wonder how much it would improve my results. It isnt in the budget right now so it will have to wait. I would post pics but don thave a camera. I do wonder if I got the best results possible. I wasnt really sure what to expect. Again the best way to describe it is a slight "wet" look, but mostly has a "glossy" appearence. My only other comparisons are my other detail a month ago (different wax, and less prep, but I liked the depth of color), and a courtesy wash I got (of all places) at the dealership it was the first time I had really seen a "wet" look, and it really caught my eye, so I was expecting that again, but I dont know what they used. I looks good, I think, but I was hoping for more. I am not sure if the characteristics of the apperance come from the polish or wax I used. There doesnt appear to be any marring on the paint, only a few scratches, and some chips on the front end, though they are not very big. The 3M helped more than I originally thought. I feel I did a good job on prep - with the wash and clay (was a bit more thorough this time, the last was a month ago, and I still picked a bunch of stuff up). The paint cleaner I was unfamiliar with. Both the cleaner and the polish directions said not to let dry and to remove quickly. perhaps I removed too quickly and didnt really "work it in" well enough?



EDIT - Another thing that just occured to me, and obviously a big one is the type of soap used. I have yet to try Megs or Mothers, which seem to be the standard. Initially (sveral weeks ago) I wasnt able to find either (for whatever reason) and picked up a bottle of Turtle Wax Zip Wax car wash soap. Having since seen several less than stellar reviews of Turtle Wax (A name I always assumed was respected since its widely known) and their wax products, I have wondered how good their soap is. Since Im almost out of this stuff, Ive since found both Megs and Mothers and maybe that will help as well?
 
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