M105 overused?

RZJZA80 said:
it seems like 105 is used on every single car nowadays, no matter what level of correction it really needs, of course that can't really be the case. So with that being said, what are the best options for just some swirl marks or light marring? Is Megs 83 still the go to for lighter cut and 105 for everything else?
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RZJZA80 said:
No I agree with you, although most won't admit it, it does seem as if 105 is automatically used no matter what
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I guess an argument that would make sense here is PC vs rotary... it's obvious that when using the PC M105 helps a lot in defect correction but I still feel there isn't a need for it that much, especially with the rotary... I made this moreso to reflect PC usage because I am positive with some pressure the PC can remove more paint than rotary with same pad/polish, and with M105, it can become too much too fast... M83 is still a very good cutting step followed by M80 or the new M205
 
Scottwax said:
Agreed and it is too aggressive for a rotary 1 step, even with a finishing pad....unless you like holograms. Via DA, it works great.
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Man, I'm glad to see one of the Big Guns say this. That's exactly the problem I've had with D151. Regardless of how little pressure I use (and I always use a zero bite pad) I still end up with holograms when using D151. Even on hard paints.
 
SuperBee364 said:
Man, I'm glad to see one of the Big Guns say this. That's exactly the problem I've had with D151. Regardless of how little pressure I use (and I always use a zero bite pad) I still end up with holograms when using D151. Even on hard paints.
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I'm with you as well... got the sampler to try it and stopped after like 3oz... not worth it for me, on rotary at least
 
I guess I see this from both sides of the fence :think:



For soft paints M105 simply isn't necessary IMO (no way I'd use it on my MPV), but as ScottWax said, on harder paints it often ends up being the best choice. IME it still takes at least two passes with M105 to do much correction on harder clear (OK, OK, depending on the application method/medium), so why waste time with anything milder :nixweiss



But note that I'm talking PC/Cyclo/Flex 3401/hand use, having basically retired my rotaries.



Another side of this- how *often* are people doing major correction? IF somebody's reaching for M105 several times a year I'd expect it to eventually bite them.
 
In five to seven years are we going to be seeing a bunch of cars driving around with CC failure due M105 and inexperienced users. In the past compounds where used by professionals due to the fact they would cut so much and so fast. So I think Accum. is wondering is there a bunch of noobs ripping away CC that they wouldn't have if M105 wasn't so darn easy to use.
 
fergnation said:
In five to seven years are we going to be seeing a bunch of cars driving around with CC failure due M105 and inexperienced users. .. So I think Accum. is wondering is there a bunch of noobs ripping away CC that they wouldn't have if M105 wasn't so darn easy to use.
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Yeah...it and not just from the inexperienced users either ;)



Seems to me that in the absence of M105 people might just live with some marring because doing complete correction would just be too big an undertaking. If you're gonna take off the clear anyhow, well sure...might as well do it efficiently. But back when six/eight/ten passes with HT EC wouldn't get (hard) paint even close to perfect, I suspect people were more inclined to just live with defects.



And even for pros, this sorta comes back around to my (kinda heretical) view that unless you can *keep* the paint basically perfect, there's not much point in *getting* it basically perfect. Spend enough time here at Autopia and it's easy to think that nothing short of perfection is OK and M105 makes that perfection pretty attainable..which might not always be good in the long run.



Gee, I've run out of paint on my Jag and I've never used anything remotely harsh on it; just moderate correction (no, it's sure not, never has been, perfect) over the course of twenty-some years ended up being too much. Had I taken M105 to it...



Heh heh, and people here sometimes wonder why I don't correct residual artifacts from RIDS/etching on the Audis when it'd just take a little more work ;)
 
Accumulator said:
I guess I see this from both sides of the fence :think:



For soft paints M105 simply isn't necessary IMO (no way I'd use it on my MPV), but as ScottWax said, on harder paints it often ends up being the best choice. IME it still takes at least two passes with M105 to do much correction on harder clear (OK, OK, depending on the application method/medium), so why waste time with anything milder :nixweiss



But note that I'm talking PC/Cyclo/Flex 3401/hand use, having basically retired my rotaries.



Another side of this- how *often* are people doing major correction? IF somebody's reaching for M105 several times a year I'd expect it to eventually bite them.
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Accumulator said:
Yeah...it and not just from the inexperienced users either ;)



Seems to me that in the absence of M105 people might just live with some marring because doing complete correction would just be too big an undertaking. If you're gonna take off the clear anyhow, well sure...might as well do it efficiently. But back when six/eight/ten passes with HT EC wouldn't get (hard) paint even close to perfect, I suspect people were more inclined to just live with defects.



And even for pros, this sorta comes back around to my (kinda heretical) view that unless you can *keep* the paint basically perfect, there's not much point in *getting* it basically perfect. Spend enough time here at Autopia and it's easy to think that nothing short of perfection is OK and M105 makes that perfection pretty attainable..which might not always be good in the long run.



Gee, I've run out of paint on my Jag and I've never used anything remotely harsh on it; just moderate correction (no, it's sure not, never has been, perfect) over the course of twenty-some years ended up being too much. Had I taken M105 to it...



Heh heh, and people here sometimes wonder why I don't correct residual artifacts from RIDS/etching on the Audis when it'd just take a little more work ;)
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As I said before, my concern was mainly for the every day DIYer... I see 10 threads daily that start with... "So, I compiled my list of products based on some research, what do you guys think: M105, M205, ...."
 
lecchilo said:
As I said before, my concern was mainly for the every day DIYer... I see 10 threads daily that start with... "So, I compiled my list of products based on some research, what do you guys think: M105, M205, ...."
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Well, IMO if they're doing this correction once a year and their paint's on the hard side, then it's still a good recommendation. If they could get by with the #80/NXT combo we were discussing on the other thread, then *that* would be a better idea.



This has me thinking of the young college student in Texas (oh...[shoot], can't remember his username.. BigDawgFox or something like that :think: ) who was having terrible trouble doing a black Caddy with #80...I can't help but think that some gentle use of M105/M205 might've saved him a lot of hassle.
 
Accumulator said:
Well, IMO if they're doing this correction once a year and their paint's on the hard side, then it's still a good recommendation. If they could get by with the #80/NXT combo we were discussing on the other thread, then *that* would be a better idea.



This has me thinking of the young college student in Texas (oh...[shoot], can't remember his username.. BigDawgFox or something like that :think: ) who was having terrible trouble doing a black Caddy with #80...I can't help but think that some gentle use of M105/M205 might've saved him a lot of hassle.
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I agree in a lot of cases it's a great product, but it rarely replaces a 3 step with a 2 step and how people got by without before seems to be ancient history... don't get me wrong, as I said before, I love M105 (old version, haven't tried now) and I regularly use M95, but it seems like it's being recommended as a starting product to basically everyone, and I think many are miss using it... an example is a local friend who bought G110, M105 and M80... he used M105 3 times... I caught him using it a 3rd time and he said he was removing more defects, when in fact he had some marring from M105 before... just dumb stuff like that leads me to believe people should at least spend 2-3 hours going in order to learn about what different pads/polishes will accomplish before saying "I think I need M105!"... like start with M80/9006, maybe even M82/9006, and move up slowly... I'm obviously only listing Meg's stuff but it's only as an easy reference...
 
Here's a good example...



Ultimate Compound messed up my paint - Car Care Forums: Meguiar's Online



Obviously this doesn't happen to a majority of people, but when even the people who 'know' what they're doing and are getting 'good' results are probably removing a bit too much cc, imagine what people like that guy, and with a machine, are doing



Again, I know it's an extreme example, but I feel too many noobs are getting the wrong info by hearing "Just get M105/M205, you'll be set"
 
lecchilo- Yeah, I think you and I see eye-to-eye on this, we're just focusing on different situations at different times.. and I'm sooo used to doing amost all my correction on *HARD* paint these days (where M105 sometimes does reduce things to a two-step polishing).



That friend of yours *is* a good example of the old "a little knowledge can be a dangerous thing"...perfectly shows the sort of thing you're well-justified in being concerned about.



And sure, until you *know* what combo is needed, starting with M105 seems silly. Even on the Yukon's hood the other day, I did a quick pass with milder stuff just to see if it might do the work.



Heh heh, and over on the "make a video for newbies" thread, you took the words right out of my mouth regarding M105 by hand! Oh, and like you, I've only used the older version.
 
Accumulator said:
lecchilo- Yeah, I think you and I see eye-to-eye on this, we're just focusing on different situations at different times.. and I'm sooo used to doing amost all my correction on *HARD* paint these days (where M105 sometimes does reduce things to a two-step polishing).



That friend of yours *is* a good example of the old "a little knowledge can be a dangerous thing"...perfectly shows the sort of thing you're well-justified in being concerned about.



And sure, until you *know* what combo is needed, starting with M105 seems silly. Even on the Yukon's hood the other day, I did a quick pass with milder stuff just to see if it might do the work.



Heh heh, and over on the "make a video for newbies" thread, you took the words right out of my mouth regarding M105 by hand! Oh, and like you, I've only used the older version.
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Yea I know I am seeing eye to eye with people just don't want people thinking I'm hating M105 or anything... I'm simply concerned that more and more of threads like the one will come up, or worse, not come up and people will simply decide detailing is bad for their cars... haha and yea no way I would touch a car by hand, EVER (other than some tight spaces of course, but even those are few and far between with the new car designs of 'flat curves" that just run into each other/other panels



EDIT: did I just complain about there being less chance of burning trim and/or adjacent panels? :grinno:
 
I find it kind of funny that this thread was posted on Autopia right after a similar topic was discussed on MOL... but I digress.



I will agree to an extent that M105 is used more than necessary. I will say, however, that in my experience with FULL correction details it is incredibly rare that I ever find a paint that I can correct with M83 or SIP type products in a single pass + finishing polish. Sure, there are those maintenance type details where some like M80 or SIP are great...but for the most part, people are posting about really abused paint.



This in turn throws off the representation of the details being done and a supposed disproportional amount of M105 usage is that Autopia and MOL type sites feature a lot of really dramatic details.



Who takes the time to post their details of their simple 1 step polishes anymore? Virtually no one. People are so used to seeing miraculous turn arounds that most people only take the time to do write-ups for jobs of that nature.



Thus, I can see how people are getting a biased view on the amount of M105 use.
 
Lumadar said:
I find it kind of funny that this thread was posted on Autopia right after a similar topic was discussed on MOL... but I digress.



I will agree to an extent that M105 is used more than necessary. I will say, however, that in my experience with FULL correction details it is incredibly rare that I ever find a paint that I can correct with M83 or SIP type products in a single pass + finishing polish. Sure, there are those maintenance type details where some like M80 or SIP are great...but for the most part, people are posting about really abused paint.



This in turn throws off the representation of the details being done and a supposed disproportional amount of M105 usage is that Autopia and MOL type sites feature a lot of really dramatic details.



Who takes the time to post their details of their simple 1 step polishes anymore? Virtually no one. People are so used to seeing miraculous turn arounds that most people only take the time to do write-ups for jobs of that nature.



Thus, I can see how people are getting a biased view on the amount of M105 use.
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Link? I didn't see that, pinkie swear.
 
My experience w/ polishes on my three black DDs have been Menzes two steps, the XMT two steps and Optima two steps w/ menz as a final polish. I am now at a point in my annual polishing routine to remove RIDS from the hood of my Mustang and some water etching from the hood of my wifes Ranger and having 105/205 on order this what I'll do: 105 w/ 4" white applied using a PC on the hoods and because there is just a little marring on the rest of the bodies I'll use my

Flex w/ white and 205 and finish w/ PC and black or blue 5 1/2" and 205.



Why am I typing all this? It's because being an informed consumer and one who keeps his cars for 10+ years I know better than to go "will nilly" w/ compounds whose level of cut is 12 on a scale of 1-10. Hopefully others will read and learn.
 
citizen arcane said:
My experience w/ polishes on my three black DDs have been Menzes two steps, the XMT two steps and Optima two steps w/ menz as a final polish. I am now at a point in my annual polishing routine to remove RIDS from the hood of my Mustang and some water etching from the hood of my wifes Ranger and having 105/205 on order this what I'll do: 105 w/ 4" white applied using a PC on the hoods and because there is just a little marring on the rest of the bodies I'll use my

Flex w/ white and 205 and finish w/ PC and black or blue 5 1/2" and 205.



Why am I typing all this? It's because being an informed consumer and one who keeps his cars for 10+ years I know better than to go "will nilly" w/ compounds whose level of cut is 12 on a scale of 1-10. Hopefully others will read and learn.
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Exactly. If people aren't willing to put a little time and effort into learning how to do this correctly/safely, then they have no one (and especially no product) to blame but themselves.
 
As a newbie this has been an informative and timely thread. Just got my pc several weeks ago. Used M105 and M21 on my daughters 11 year old neglected Infiniti. Wow! what a turnaround to the paint. I was so intoxicated with the results I was going to use it on my Yukon. But the more I read the more I decided to use a less aggressive approach as the paint is in very good shape. It is a DD and gets heavy use and during the hot AZ summers I just have very little time and desire to wash it so it does see a car wash occasionally which means getting a high level of correction would be a waste. Long story short, I did some more research and decided to go with SwirlX and a white CCS pad. Just finished a few panels tonight. It didn't get 100% correction (wasn't practical anyway) as the CC is real hard but it looks fantastic and feels like silk. I still am in awe of the information that is available on this site.
 
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