M105, 1st time use... Wow!

[jpd1228]

I did get the right stuff correct? I have swirl marks which would not come out on a candy red camaro after 2 layers of:



3M Perfect-It Polishing Pad Glaze Swirl Mark Remover # 39009



As I am stepping up to the #39002 and using a Porter Cable along with a yellow pad I should be all set.



As long as I am not going overboard and one layer is going to rip off all of my clear coat, take some paint and leave more swirl marks I am happy.



Your response would be great (got to give my car another 8 hour exterior only detail job after a 7 hour job two weeks ago that left me disappointed)



Thanks again,

Joe

 

[JasonC8301]

Try a few passes with the 3M 39002 and if that does not work. Move on up to the PC and cutting pad.



This should solve your problem.



If there is a haze after the 3M 39002, its only micro marring, making bigger scratches smaller.



Try 3M SMR on them and it might clear it up.



Some people had success with Klasse AIO removing this haze.



Jason

 

[hook]

I use 39002 when 39009 doesn't work, and don't experience hazing with either. Some here have, though, and Jason is correct in stating how to deal with any that might occur.



blue skies,

Andy

 

[imported_Roadrunner]

Anybody wanna buy some Menzerna?:wink:

Just kidding...

I hopped on the M105/205 bandwagon awhile back but have just been a little hesitant to change from the products I usually use. I decided to do my little Ford Ranger work truck. It's a bit swirled, some water etching and a few minor scratches here and there.

I did some test panels ( just panels, not my truck:wink with 105 the other day...
I had a bit of learning curve as at first the PC would jump around a bit midway thru a section, the polish seemed to get tacky, I'm using flat LC pads btw. I went back and once again read the "description" part of the Kevin Brown Kits that PAC sells. I wasn't using any M34 spray... just a tiny mist of water.:doh: I think my priming method's correct as far as working the polish into the pad and removing the excess with a towel. I also think I was using too little polish as well... 3 small pea sized dots. Tried more polish on the pad, and using the M34 spray... much better.

So, today... after further study I got going on the truck: PC, orange pad with 105, I tried a white pad and the swirls were still there just a bit.
Man, this stuff's amazing! It starts out doing all the heavy work with the defects and then I just lightened up a bit and finished the pass when it flashed.
The finished pass left the paint almost LSP ready... I was totally floored.:w00t:

Tomorrow I'll finish up with either a black or white pad/M205 and then seal. Might follow the 205 with 85RD to put the mirror finish on things. I'll see how I'm doing on time.

I didn't actually do the KB method... I went with the directions provided from Meguiar's... first two/three passes with moderate pressure and then two more with light pressure. Worked like a charm. I need to practice a bit more with the KB method before employing that.

Long story short... I'm sold on M105.

 

[imported_Luster]

Pretty incredible stuff. I'm with you on this one. Once I used 105, my other polishes have dust on the bottles!:wink:

 

[Puckman]

Try to experiment a little with the KBM. It's amazing stuff via the Meg's method but tweaked with the KBM method it's even more amazing!

Feels great to find something that works that well, doesn't it? I was also amazed.

I still use my "other" stuff on softer clears but it's M105 most of the time on the others. I still seem to get a bunch of medium to hard paints.

 

[imported_Roadrunner]

Thanks guys!:Christmas Hat:

The first time I actually used it, I thought I'd picked up the wrong stuff, it finished up so well and did such a good job with the defects. I was sitting there going, "What IS this stuff?"

A truly great product!

I still find that "sticky" phase in the middle a little worrysome, that's why I haven't gone the KBM route yet. Like I said, I'm still on the upswing of the learning curve.

My truck's a 2000 model with a clearcoat. The paint's not exactly soft but it's not a modern hard finish either. The 105 was no problem with it.

 

[imported_wfedwar]

I've been blown away by 105/205 as well. Priming the pad is important for both. I use two ~5 inch lines on a 7.5" pad to get started. I just rub the pad a little on the panel and that works the same as rubbing it into the pad with my hand, or at least it does for me. Once primed, three drops is enough to keep going. From my limited experience, 205 finishes off as well as Menzernas and even better than Ultrafina (though differences are almost imperceptible). I finish with a Flex, and therefore don't "jewel" per Todd's definition, so more might be out there for those who do.

 

[imported_Roadrunner]

I've been blown away by 105/205 as well. Priming the pad is important for both. I use two ~5 inch lines on a 7.5" pad to get started. I just rub the pad a little on the panel and that works the same as rubbing it into the pad with my hand, or at least it does for me. Once primed, three drops is enough to keep going. From my limited experience, 205 finishes off as well as Menzernas and even better than Ultrafina (though differences are almost imperceptible). I finish with a Flex, and therefore don't "jewel" per Todd's definition, so more might be out there for those who do.

I mist the pad with M34, then I put an "X" on a 6.5" pad and then a couple of spots in the open parts of the X, worked it in with my hands REALLY well. Put the pad on the PC and pressed it into a towel to get the excess out. The pad feels "damp" after this but not saturated or wet with product.
Then another "X" to start, very thin lines. After starting, just 3 small dots of product for subsequent passes.

I think I'm doing it correctly?

 

[Justin Murphy]

105/205 has changed everything in the compounding/polishing world. I can get 105 to finish out LSP ready 90% of the time. 205....wow....you can make the finish pop with it.

 

[imported_glfahlc]

the first time i used 105 was the first time i saw the bimmer completely scratch free. and yes i was tempted to go right to the w/d after i finished with the passes, but did a white lcs/ power finish and 85rd w/black pad. can't wait for it to get warm again, i got three more to do.

 

[imported_wfedwar]

I mist the pad with M34, then I put an "X" on a 6.5" pad and then a couple of spots in the open parts of the X, worked it in with my hands REALLY well. Put the pad on the PC and pressed it into a towel to get the excess out. The pad feels "damp" after this but not saturated or wet with product.
Then another "X" to start, very thin lines. After starting, just 3 small dots of product for subsequent passes.

I think I'm doing it correctly?

I wouldn't say there's a right or wrong. If what you're doing is working, then its fine. I've used M205 with a rotary and also with a Flex. It behaves very differently, but both produce great results. With the rotary, it's like the polish sticks to the pad and with the Flex, the polish seems to stick to the paint. It's odd...

 

[ZL1Mark]

Put the pad on the PC and pressed it into a towel to get the excess out.

As far as I know, you only need to do this when final polishing, not defect removal. I could be wrong?

 

[Jeff U]

... I didn't actually do the KB method... I went with the directions provided from Meguiar's...

I have had great success with M105 but it took me a long time and much frustration to figure out how to use it.

And this is one of the rare times when I thought advice I received on detailing forums was less than useful.

The way the product is often described on forums (not here) is now one of my pet peeves. While I find it described as a great polish, no one ever explicitly says that it acts very differently than other polishes, especially M205.

From the descriptions, I expected M105 to behave like M205. M205 stays lubricated, does not dry out, produces no dust regardless how long it is worked, and it's easy to wipe off.

This was not my experience with M105. When I raised questions I was pretty much told I was not doing it right. Usually making reference to the mythical KBM that was mentioned repeatedly but rarely, if ever, described in detail. I was told that the reason M105 appeared to dry out, or flash, seconds after beginning to polish was my technique was wrong.

I tried all the recommended fixes (prime pad, smaller work area, water spray, more product, less product, faster speed, slower speed, wipe off with spray bottle, etc...) with little success in getting M105 to behave like many seem to describe. I almost threw the stuff away.

Here are my self discovered conclusions:

• It's a great product and produces wonderful results.
• However, M105 is VERY different - it "drys" quickly and produces a moderate amount of dust.
• The KBM is more marketing hype than a useful step by step method to follow. Polishing cars with a machine is not rocket science and does not require detailed studies by the user. Making the polish is a science, using it is not.

Here's my step by step method that I find works for M105:

1. I do not prime the pad. I like Mequiars flat pads
2. I spray a tiny amount of water on the pad (I check the pad after each section to insure it does not feel completely dry. Spray tiny bit more water as needed)
3. I apply polish to the pad. I use about the same amount as I would any other polish
4. Spread polish on surface of paint before turning on polisher
5. Turn on polisher
6. Within seconds of beginning to polish, the M105 appears to dry out. If you stop here, the wipe off is VERY difficult.
7. Don't stop - continue polishing
8. Vary pressure depending on what I'm trying to correct. Heavy swirls, heavier pressure.
9. The M105 will begin to dust and almost appear to breakdown like a diminishing polish. You can work as long as you like.
10. There will be very little visible M105 left on the paint and wipe off is very easy.

Down from my soap box, thank you...

 

[imported_Kevin Brown]

...The KBM is more marketing hype than a useful step by step method to follow...

Huh?! Who marketed it to me?! :huh:

I am disappointed that you did not receive useful help through the forums!
There are dozens of guys out there that will take the time to help someone in serious need (me included). I've seen it many times.
All is well that ends well, I suppose.

Generally, EVERYONE should first use the manufacturer's recommendations when using a product.
Certainly, the directions on the back of the M105 bottle were first considered and then worded very carefully.

As for your approach... If the results you achieved were satisfactory- GREAT!

Polishing cars with a machine is not rocket science...

True.

... and does not require detailed studies by the user. Making the polish is a science, using it is not.

Mmmm, not sure that is true.

From the New Oxford American Dictionary:
science |ˈsīəns|
noun
the intellectual and practical activity encompassing the systematic study of the structure and behavior of the physical and natural world through observation and experiment : the world of science and technology.
? a particular area of this : veterinary science | the agricultural sciences.
? a systematically organized body of knowledge on a particular subject : the science of criminology.
? archaic knowledge of any kind.
ORIGIN Middle English (denoting knowledge): from Old French, from Latin scientia, from scire ?know.?

From Wikipedia:
Science (from the Latin scientia, meaning "knowledge") is, in its broadest sense, any systematic knowledge-base or prescriptive practice that is capable of resulting in a prediction or predictable type of outcome. In this sense, science may refer to a highly skilled technique or practice.

If others reading this run into problems, they should do what YOU did.
That is... (you are gonna hate me for this)... use the Scientific Method, or a variation of it!

A quick Google of the Scientific Method brought up several variations, but this one will do:

The steps of the scientific method are:
Ask a Question
Do Background Research
Construct a Hypothesis
Test Your Hypothesis by Doing an Experiment
Analyze Your Data and Draw a Conclusion
Communicate Your Results

...Within seconds of beginning to polish, the M105 appears to dry out. If you stop here, the wipe off is VERY difficult. Don't stop - continue polishing

Yes.
It is at this time that a majority of the particles are sticking to the rough and oxidized paint texture.
As you work the abrasives, they start to cut away this crud and can then more easily glide along the paint surface.

...The M105 will begin to dust and almost appear to breakdown like a diminishing polish. You can work as long as you like. There will be very little visible M105 left on the paint and wipe off is very easy.

At this point, a lot of the abrasive particles are attached to the buffing pad. The stuff that does not dust away is either on the pad or in the membrane structure of the pad. All that remains on the paint surface is liquid that did not soak into the pad, sling from the surface, or evaporate away.

Since you've completed most of your paint polishing by this time, wipe off is generally easy. Sometimes, you'll run into a case where some particles just plain STICK. These little fellas likely attached early-on while the paint was rough, and they did not budge. Some guys have luck using a wet microfiber, or some type of spray detailer to remove them. Other guys use isopropyl accohol. Usually, though, a quick wipe of some M105 using a microfiber towel will do the trick.

Again, sorry to hear you didn't get better advice.
Even if you NEVER use my methods or advice... feel free to e-mail ME for my :2 cents: on the subject!

 

[Jeff U]

Kevin,

I reread my post and a couple things I said were unkind and unnecessary. I apologize.

Jeff
=====

If I were you I would clarify in simple terms exactly what the KBM is supposed to be.

When I see your method described, there is a tendency to begin and end with priming the pad. Beyond priming everything becomes very vague. Maybe I think there is more and there is not.

Is the total of KBM priming the pad and nothing more?

I have yet to see a step by step list of your method. If you have it in a simple ten (or how many) bullet format, I would love to see it. Especially, if it highlights the difference in behavior between M105 & M205 in practical use.

You could save a lot of people much time and frustration in both searching the web forums and in their use of M105/M205. I'm sure truthindetailing would be happy to post it as a sticky in the how to forum.

As an example of my confusion see the long wording below. This is the "general directions and tips" tab on Proper Auto Care's page selling (and making heavy use of your name) the M105/M205/Flex3401 polishing kit. (http://www.properautocare.com/kbmkbrmekitw4.html)

The first line is: KBM (Kevin Brown Method) General Directions and Tips

But read through the page and there is not much KBM beyond priming the pad.

Also, notice how M105 & M205 are described in tandem which, at least to me, implies that they will behave similarly. In my experience they are very different.

KBM (Kevin Brown Method) General Directions and Tips:

When it comes to using polishes such as Meguiar?s M105 Ultra Cut Compound and Meguiar?s M205 Ultra Finishing Polish, regardless of the machine you choose to use, ProperAutoCare.com recommends starting with the least aggressive method possible. This would be Meguiar's M205 with either a Lake Country Flat 6.5 inch Black Finessing Pad or Meguiar's Soft Buff 2.0 Black Finishing Pad.

If this combination does not provide the results necessary, increase the aggressiveness of the technique (longer working time, more pressure, more power) or increase the cut of the product and switch to a medium polishing pad. The next step up would be Meguiar?s M205 Ultra Finishing Polish used with a Lake Country Flat 6.5 inch White Polishing Pad or Meguiar's Soft Buff 2.0 Yellow Polishing Pad.

If this combination does not provide the desired results, increase the aggressiveness of the technique or product selection. The next step would be Meguiar's M105 Ultra Cut Compound on a Lake Country Flat 6.5 inch White Polishing Pad or Meguiar's Soft Buff 2.0 Yellow Polishing Pad. Note that polishing with M105 will often require a second, follow-up polishing step with M205 to achieve the highest gloss and clearest, swirl free finish. Never mix polishes on the same pad. Switch to a clean, fresh pad included in the kit. If this combination is still not garnering the results you are looking for, increase the aggressiveness of the technique or the product.

Meguiar's M105 Ultra Cut Compound used with a Lake Country Flat 6.5 inch Orange Power Pad or Meguiar's Soft Buff 2.0 Burgundy Cutting Pad is an aggressive combination and is capable of ?leveling out? most paint defects in one or two applications. If using Meguiar?s M105 Ultra Cut Compound is necessary, follow up with Meguiar?s M205 Ultra Finishing Polish to remove any light polishing haze and restore full clarity and a swirl free finish to the paint. Always test your combination on a test spot, and inspect in good lighting before proceeding to copy that combination over the entire vehicle.

Least to most aggressive:

M205 used with a ?Finishing Pad?: Will remove very light defects and result in a high gloss, swirl free finish.

M205 used with a ?Polishing Pad?: Will remove moderate to light defects and compounding marks, and results in a high gloss, swirl free finish on most paints.

M105 used with a ?Polishing Pad?: Will remove moderate to heavy defects and will often require follow up polishing with M205.

M105 used with a ?Power? or ?Cutting Pad?: Will remove moderate to heavy defects on most paints and will often require follow up polishing with M205.

Pad Priming: The new micro non-diminishing abrasives from Meguiar's require that the pores of the pad are evenly primed with product for fastest cutting and highest gloss. It is recommended to "prime" a fresh, dry pad one of three ways:

The Kevin Brown Method (KBM): Apply a liberal amount of polish on the surface of the pad and massage the product into the pores with your fingers until the surface is covered in a fine film of polish. Remove excess polish from the pad, so that it feels slightly damp, by lightly pressing a cotton terry or microfiber cloth against the pad while it spins.


Meguiar's M34: Meguiar's recommends misting the dry pad with M34 Final Inspection, then drawing two lines of product, in an X fashion, across the diameter of the pad. M34 will help the polish spread across the pad during the initial polishing application.


Hybrid: ProperAutoCare.com recommends using a hybrid pad priming system to save on material costs and increase ease of use. Mist the dry pad with M34 Final Inspection then draw an X across the pad. Quickly massage the polishing with your fingers into the pad and cover as much surface as possible.

Regardless of the priming method you choose, once the pad has been primed, apply a small amount of polish to the pad between sections. Three ?dime sized? amounts, applied to the outer 1/3 of the pad are sufficient.

Polish one small section at a time, two feet by two feet, per application. Start by placing the pad on the paint and spreading the polish out, then turn the polisher on. Using firm pressure and overlapping left to right, right to left strokes cover the area to be polished.


Polish first going left to right.

Make a second pass over the working area using overlapping ?up to down, down to up? strokes. M105 and M205 do not require a typical ?buffing cycle? to break down the abrasives. Repeat this cross hatch pattern until the defects are removed or the polish begins to dry. Then reduce pressure and make a few more passes over the area to ensure a high gloss finish.


Create cross-hatch pattern going up & down.

Machine speed has much to do with your confidence level as you learn to use these polishes. We recommend using speed 5 on the PC 7424 or Meguiar?s G-110 and a speed of 3.5-4 on the Flex XC3401VRG Dual-Action Polisher. Overlap your strokes, using a ?slow arm speed? while applying firm pressure. We have found success moving the polisher one to three inches per second allows the polish to correct most blemishes.

The amount of ?work? or ?cut? accomplished with a non-diminishing abrasive is dependent on the pressure applied to the polisher. For maximum cutting action with the Flex XC3401VRG Dual-Action Polisher, apply 15-20 pounds of pressure on the face of the machine. When using the Porter Cable 7424 or Meguiar?s G110 random orbital polishers, use enough pressure to slow, but not stall the rotation of the pad. On your final passes over the work area, reduce the pressure and lightly move the machine over the surface to allow the abrasives to jewel away any micro marring left from your polishing.

After polishing a section, remove residue immediately with a high quality microfiber cloth such as our Dragon Fiber Perfect Shine Buffing Cloth.

Because Meguiar's M105 Ultra Cut Compound and Meguiar's M205 Ultra Finishing Polishes' abrasives do not breakdown in the traditional sense, the polishes can be sensitive to contamination. During the polishing process, a trace amount of paint is removed, this can cause the non-diminishing abrasives to ?clump? together with the spent paint particles. This can increase the polishing haze left on the paint from heavy polishing, effecting the finish left behind.

 

[Jeff U]

Roadrunner,

Congrats on the great results !! :clap:


Now, where are the photos ?

 

[Todd@RUPES]

This was not my experience with M105. When I raised questions I was pretty much told I was not doing it right. Usually making reference to the mythical KBM that was mentioned repeatedly but rarely, if ever, described in detail. I was told that the reason M105 appeared to dry out, or flash, seconds after beginning to polish was my technique was wrong.

This part is mostly my fault!!! Why? When I first spoke to Kevin, there was no method... Kevin was patient enough to explain the working of how and why a DA polisher works like it does in great detail. From how the stroke length effects the rotation of the pad, to how the abrasives attach, role around, and spit out, to what happens to the abraded paint, to how pressure effects the pad itself, and how the pad itself affects the polishing process. I probably had upwards of twenty hour long conversations with Kevin.

I found that the information willing to share with me made me much better at paint polishing. In a thread I used the information he provided to me and stated ,"using Kevin Brown's methods of madness." This became, as things do in cyberland, the KBM.

So you are correct there is no step by step procedure, nor can there be. As anybody who has detailed more then a couple of cars knows we face way too many variables and polish in such dynamic enviroments, that getting the absolute best (vs. just good results) on each vehicle is a combination of art and knowledge.

When I first spoke of the KBM, what I was referring to was the extreme education that Kevin had given me, vs. any step by step procedure. When you go to College you don't get a step by step handout on how to build a successful business; you hopefully receive enough knowledge to be able to increase you chances of doing so.

Here are my self discovered conclusions:

• It's a great product and produces wonderful results.
• However, M105 is VERY different - it "drys" quickly and produces a moderate amount of dust.
• The KBM is more marketing hype than a useful step by step method to follow. Polishing cars with a machine is not rocket science and does not require detailed studies by the user. Making the polish is a science, using it is not.

The beauty of detailing is it is all very personal. Let's be honest, that is the beauty of life in general. We all have different views based upon our experiences and precptions. What I might think looks great, you may find looks horrible. I may like a different look to my wax, you may prefer the brighter shine you see with a sealant. We may like our tires to have different levels of sheen. You may find having an excessive amount of knowledge about polishing paint useless and find it absolutely vital.

My views are shaped around the experiences I had incurred as a professional detailer who has constantly strived to take cars to the highest level. When I first started detailing I though that I was doing great work. I mean really great work. As my experience grew and as I constantly strived to get better and better, I was able to increase 1% here and 1% there. What I found is that more my knowledge increased, and the more I was able to apply that knowledge in the field, the better I was able to get. I also found, as expected, that each 1% increase took longer and longer and was harder and harder to achieve. I think this is common in pretty much all of life. Its easy to be good, its very hard to be great.

So depending on your views, your experience, and your expectations, excessive knowledge may or may not help you. In my experience, as well as many of the very highest end detailers I speak with, polishing paint is a science, at least at the very highest level. It's easy to be good, it's considerably harder to be great.

Here's my step by step method that I find works for M105:

1. I do not prime the pad. I like Mequiars flat pads
2. I spray a tiny amount of water on the pad (I check the pad after each section to insure it does not feel completely dry. Spray tiny bit more water as needed)
3. I apply polish to the pad. I use about the same amount as I would any other polish
4. Spread polish on surface of paint before turning on polisher
5. Turn on polisher
6. Within seconds of beginning to polish, the M105 appears to dry out. If you stop here, the wipe off is VERY difficult.
7. Don't stop - continue polishing
8. Vary pressure depending on what I'm trying to correct. Heavy swirls, heavier pressure.
9. The M105 will begin to dust and almost appear to breakdown like a diminishing polish. You can work as long as you like.
10. There will be very little visible M105 left on the paint and wipe off is very easy.

Down from my soap box, thank you...

And this what makes polishing and detailing awesome! Everybody can do it there own way and find what works best. However if you where to able to break down each step and find out why it worked for you, wouldn't you be able to tweak the process just a little bit.. Perhaps make it better?

The very fact that you experimented with your series of techniques and though systematic elimination shows how much personal science is involved in technique. The Kevin Brown method is really just an exploration of each of the things you mentioned. It is an in depth look at what exactly what happens when paint is polished, and for those looking to improve there skills.
If somebody is happy with the results they are achieving, then great! If somebody is driven to see if they can get better, then they may find Kevin's material helpful.

 

[Justin Murphy]

Great info here in this thread....from everyone.

I remember getting bashed years ago for starting out with a harsh pad/polish combo. I was told many times that there is no way you can get a finish LSP ready with that "combo". Wrong. I did. It took practice but I did get the results "I" and the "customer" wanted....not other forum members.

Detailing can be personalized and there is nothing wrong with that.

 

[Jeff U]

... This became, as things do in cyberland, the KBM.

So you are correct there is no step by step procedure, ...

You are now my hero. :notworthy:

This is what I thought was true but never stated.

So to paraphrase, many sites have been sending newbie's looking for a basic checklist to guide their use of a M105, M205 and a machine polisher to a method that does not exist. At least in how I would use the word "method".

Sounds like it should be labeled the KBP (Kevin Brown Philosophy).

Or like the pirate's code in the Pirates of the Caribbean - it more like "guidelines".