Looking for advice on paint correction.

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Buffingtech1

New member
I work in a body shop, for over a year now, as a buffing tech. I struggle, with swirl marks, and scratches not wanting to come out. I use a dewalt 9 inch rotary buffer, with a wool cutting pad first with wizards mystic cut at 1400 rpm’s. Then I go with the 3m gray swirl removing pad with the mystic swirl remover from wizards at 1200 rpm’s. Then finish with the 3m blue foam pad with wizards ultra fine polish. And still seeing scratches and swirls in the panels. The painters use the ppg deltron 5030 clear coat which I think is really soft. I can get all the swirls out and scratches sometimes but as soon as I wash and dry the vehicle the scratches and swirls are right back in it. Any advice ?
 
I think you need to figure out if it`s the wash causing the swirls or removing the fillers/oils that mask the swirls.

How are your results on hard factory clear?
 
Not sure, we only cut and buff the panels, that our shop fixes and repaints other than just polishing the adjacent panels. As far as washing a factory clear they normally are already scratched and swirl up before we wash them when they are first brought in so it’s hard to tell
 
Buffingtech1 said:
Not sure, we only cut and buff the panels, that our shop fixes and repaints other than just polishing the adjacent panels. As far as washing a factory clear they normally are already scratched and swirl up before we wash them when they are first brought in so it’s hard to tell
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Live a little and experiment on factory clear.

Also polish then remove the oils and inspect without washing.
 
I always wipe, compound and polish off, after buffing and polishing and it always seems to put new scratches in it. Using always new clean microfiber towels and a little inspection spray. As far as trying to buff factory clear I rarely have time to and the shop doesn’t want me buffing anything but what we had painted. Due to risk of making a mistake on a panel we didn’t fix.
 
Buffingtech1 said:
I always wipe, compound and polish off, after buffing and polishing and it always seems to put new scratches in it. Using always new clean microfiber towels and a little inspection spray. As far as trying to buff factory clear I rarely have time to and the shop doesn’t want me buffing anything but what we had painted. Due to risk of making a mistake on a panel we didn’t fix.
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Do you own a car or walk to work?
 
I have a vehicle I tried buffing on it when I first started out and ended up burning it pretty bad. And was full of swirls and buffer trails after i got done. I am reminded of it every day at work but yet. I was trained as a painter never had to buff on anything.
 
Sorry you have gotten some snarky answers, let me make sure I understand, are you sanding the fresh paint first, and then starting with the wool pad and compound to remove the sanding marks? Then the idea is to go with the swirl remover and fine polish to refine the finish? You say you always use a new microfiber; how is the cleanliness of your pads?

Also, the swirls reappearing after the wash sure sounds like the compounds/polishes you are using have some oils/fillers that are being removed by the wash process.
 
Yes, I’m wet sanding out the dirt nibs, with 2000 grit, then trizact 3000 and 5000. Then using the wool pad, I keep pads very clean as well and I’m not sure if the wizards products we use have fillers in them or not. Also we were using the perfect it 3m 3 step process, but seemed to be to aggressive for the clear the painters use. Honestly I’ve been buffing for a little over a year with no experience on buffing and I’m really starting to hate it and have almost quit my job several times because it never seems to turn out when I get done with jobs. And the shop won’t send me for any training unless required to keep their gold standard for the manufacturers
 
Honestly, if you`re sanding out to 5000 grit, I`m not sure you need to start with a wool pad. Can you try skipping to the next step and see how that works out?
 
I’m not sure how great the abrasive products being used are. Do you have access to other compounds and polishes ( maybe Meguiar’s for example) to try out? Sometimes not only do different pads need to be used, but different compounds/polishes are also needed
 
We have used 3m compounds and polishes and meguiars and not very good results we are limited on different products as far as what our shop will approve to purchase. As far as different pads we only use the 3m wool pad and white cutting pad and the grey pad and blue pads all 3m 9 inch pads for rotary
 
Buffingtech1 said:
I have tried that as well and it didn’t remove all of the sanding marks plus it left a major haze after that and swirls
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So you`re doing 3 polishing steps, and if you skip the first one, the second step doesn`t remove the sanding marks, ok, I understand that--but if it leaves major haze...wouldn`t step 2 do that after your wool/compound step also? How can it leave hazing if you skip the compounding if it doesn`t create hazing when you do the compounding?

Also, if you still have sanding marks after 5000 grit, are you sure you are spending enough time with the 3000 and 5000? Also, are you wet sanding, dry sanding, by hand, or machine? Just another factor here, a 9" pad has a very high surface speed at the OD, and you can generate a lot of heat, which may be drying out your compound/polish, is that possible?
 
It does haze even after using wool pad, and the grey pad still doesn’t seem to much different. As far as sanding I feel I’m sanding enough without sanding through the clear coat. The painters only use to coats dc5030 clear coat. The 9 inch pad does generate a good amount of heat but I don’t run it really high rpm’s just moderate to avoid over heating the panels and I make sure I don’t dry buff
 
I just watched this video that basically runs through the 6-step process you are using: 3M™ Paint Finishing with Perfect-It™ EX Platform - YouTube

It`s a little hard for me to wrap my head around doing 6 steps in today`s world, when I came here 20 years ago polishing was a 3 step process, but it`s really been a 2-step once the SMAT abrasives arrived in 2007-ish. In the video you can see after the 5000 grit step there is hardly any noticeable sanding haze, which is what I would expect from my experience with 5000 grit. They skip the wool and go straight to the white foam compounding pad--have you tried that?
 
Yea and it didn’t do much different I’m starting to think the clear coat they use is always soft so no matter what I use it’s not gonna make a difference. I’ve tried what the 3m videos say to do and still get crap results. I’ve notice using the white pad also seems to dry out compound quicker than the wool and grabs the panel worse than the wool for some reason. But like I said I don’t know a bunch about buffing I was trained as a painter and I never had to buff anything when I was in my collision repair tech training
 
I was trained as a Painter and part of the training WAS how to compound correctly using only a Rotary.
Learned how to use the machine pad/s and product/s to always come out with a perfectly clear, glossy, finish..

I cannot understand how they did not, or someone like a real Painter did not show you how to do this..
.
Certainly, Collision Repair Tech training will Never show you how to prime the paint, after getting all the deep scratches left by all the body guys I ever worked with..

From what little I know about your processes using the Rotary, or actually, any machine, etc., I know this - you have to keep the pad, product, and panel, moist enough, so that the product does not dry out too soon..If it Does dry too soon, then you end up with a mess that means - start over -...

You mention only 1 pad of whatever you have - if this is really All the pads you have, then that is another problem that needs to be addressed.. Want to go there?

In my experiences as both the Painter, then the finisher of the new paint, then the blend that went wherever, and then the rest of that/those/panels, so that ALL the panels affected looked the same, I had to use the Rotary, at a low speed, like around 800+ to get the pad, product, and panel well acquainted with what was about to happen, and then, keep a good eye on it, and if needed, because it started to dry too soon, spray something like a little Pad Conditioner on the panel, and keep it going, damp, less damp, and then finished it just dry and then that`s it...

Of course, if you need to go back over because there are still scratches, etc., in that panel, then of course, you go again, and perhaps, add a little more downward pressure to the work, to help get the defects out..

The wool pads of the years long ago were just that - wool, and it got everywhere, if you ran the machine at a high speed, which is another reason I did not like higher speeds.. I just don`t need all those things over 1,000 rpm ever...

Now, how is it you don`t know if you are using a hard clear or not ??? You are the painter, right? You need to tell us a little about what you are doing to DRY all the Primer, before, and after you do the final Blocking of the Primer, and then how long for all those steps was the painted area/s actually drying, and how were they drying?? Heat lamps, outside, just air drying, etc...

The number of coats of the Primer, and the Paint have to be taken into account for knowing how long is everything going to need to be dry enough to work on it..

Lastly, you need to absolutely, have CLEAN PADS for every step, and that means many of each... Using dirty pads only puts the gunk you just removed out of the paint, back into the paint and the pad again...

To recap, I only use slower speeds, enough Moisture each time, to help keep everything working smoothly, and lots of stops, to see the work, wipe off the pad if you are using it a few more times, and then achieving the level of clarity and gloss needed to satisfy the Boss and the Client..

I only use smaller, white, clean towels for all pad wipe offs, so I can get a visual of what color is coming off the panel, and again, I wipe off the pad face with a clean, white, towel, and really soft, clean, clean, microfiber for the painted surfaces...

Softer Clear/Paint - have to lower the amount of heat you are making with the pad, product, and your technique, looking for the gloss to come out sooner...Some soft paints are really finicky and sometimes, only certain products for correcting will work on them the best... As you get more experience, a lot of this will come easier..

Good luck !
Dan F
 
I have been using 4,pads 3m wool and white foam and gray swirl remover pad and blue polish pad.(we get new pads ordered every week so when the pads are wore out we change them we just clean them between jobs) And no I’m not the painter at the shop I work at, I’m a buffing tech. When I went to vocational school, I was trained as a painter, never had to buff anything. My instructor refused to teach it because he hated doing it, where his dad, made him do it for 10 years straight, in his own body shop, when he was a kid. So he only did a small crash course on it, which was using a rotary buffer and 3m compound and polish 3 step process with 3m white compound pad and grey foam swirl waffle pad and a blue waffle polish pad and he only showed us that one time. And at my work we never have had a pad conditioner, we just have detailer spray to use to clean compound and polish to clean the panels and check for any other imperfections during and after process.
 
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