Lexus Discussion Thread ( Originally Hijack in MF thread)

SilverLexus said:
:rolleyes: No it's not. On the ES, you have better body panel construction, better interior parts and seats (better leather too!), better painting, quality of assembly. It all matters!



<reversing decision to stay out of thread> What is "better body panel construction"? Have you ever worked in manufacturing? What does that mean? My Bonneville SSE has "better interior parts and seats" (SSE specific seats, unavailable on "lesser" Bonnys...oh and did I mention the keyless entry and steering wheel radio/climate controls? ), and I'm sure they paid a little more attention to my car as a top-of-the-line model built to order for a customer as opposed to one for the dealer's lot, but it's still a BONNEVILLE, still a PONTIAC, even though I'm sure it was built in the same plant with its Olds and Buick bretheren.



:wall Ok, I give...your Lexus transcends it's corporate lineage and is a little slice of heaven on earth. And my RSX isn't just a Honda with Acura badges on it :rolleyes:



EDIT: You know, several of us have allowed that there is added value to a Lexus over a Toyota. No one is trying to say you got "taken for a ride" and bought an overpriced Camry. We are just pointing out the reality of how products are designed and manufactured.
 
Pontman43 said:
The Ultimate Guzzler is good, soft, absorbs a lot due to size, but $27 is a lot for one towel. Bigger is not always better, I still prefer my small 16x28 WWs over the huge Guzzler.

I have an Ultimate Guzzler. In fact I just ordered a second one I like it so much. It's REALLY a large towel, but it has hand pockets sewn into the corners which make it easy to handle. It's very soft and absorbent as well.



Well, I have to say when I used the example of ES & Camry I had no idea it would end up being a 12 page discussion. Personally, I feel like if you buy the ES all you're getting is the better warranty and dealer service. All the differences mentioned between the two cars seem to me to be either inconsequential or cosmetic. Even cosmetically though the two cars do not share body panels (according to a previous post) they look VERY similar in their current iterations. Prior to the current models the two cars at least looked quite different.
 
You know, several of us have allowed that there is added value to a Lexus over a Toyota. No one is trying to say you got "taken for a ride" and bought an overpriced Camry. We are just pointing out the reality of how products are designed and manufactured.



I realize that and certainly appreciate that, but I still feel that the overall construction and build quality is different, even if the platform is shared. In my mind that is not cosmetic...perhaps I am wrong but that's how I feel.



Look at it from another direction: why does the ES consistently win the top JD Power and Intellichoice awards and the Camry does not (admittedly it does well in other areas)? If the construction is mainly the platform and the platform is shared, why not have more quality awards for the Camry? I think it is because the ES is better constructed overall.
 
If I spend an extra dollar on the name brand Corn Flakes, they'll probably taste better versus the generic stuff.



If I buy Nike sneakers over a no-brand sneaker, it'll probably feel more comfortable and look better.



And so on..
 
ajmrn30 said:
Purchase a bundle of 6 for $24.99. Use 10% coupon and the price per each is $3.75.



Anyone else use and like these Cobra MF towels?



What about the Ulitmate Guzzler WW? When I added the bundle of 6 Cobra's to my cart, it said I could get the Ultimate Guzzler for $26.99 instead of the $29.99. With the 10%, it would be $24.29.







Yes these towels are the Plushies & thickets & Softest Towel to QD or BUFF PakShaks has no chance with these. :eek: Infact i bet the same manufactuer makes them.





If I spend an extra dollar on the name brand Corn Flakes, they'll probably taste better versus the generic stuff.



If I buy Nike sneakers over a no-brand sneaker, it'll probably feel more comfortable and look better.



And so on...



true but MF are not a big thing like nike shoes & corn flakes becasue there only a hand full of factories that make them obviously Vendors are shopping @ the same place. :chuckle: .
 
SilverLexus said:
Look at it from another direction: why does the ES consistently win the top JD Power and Intellichoice awards and the Camry does not (admittedly it does well in other areas)? If the construction is mainly the platform and the platform is shared, why not have more quality awards for the Camry? I think it is because the ES is better constructed overall.

These awards you mention I believe are based on customer surveys (at least the JD Power is). I think it goes along with the old saying "perception is reality." People perceive because they have a Lexus "L" on the front of their car that they have a high quality, defect free car.



All Toyota's are well built IMO, but if you have a problem with a Toyota product are you going to remember it if you're treated like a king because you're a Lexus owner? If you're just a Toyota owner and you get treated like every other Tom, ****, and Harry when you have a problem you're more likely to remember it.
 
Mikeyc said:
These awards you mention I believe are based on customer surveys (at least the JD Power is). I think it goes along with the old saying "perception is reality." People perceive because they have a Lexus "L" on the front of their car that they have a high quality, defect free car.



All Toyota's are well built IMO, but if you have a problem with a Toyota product are you going to remember it if you're treated like a king because you're a Lexus owner? If you're just a Toyota owner and you get treated like every other Tom, ****, and Harry when you have a problem you're more likely to remember it.



Or you're just older like my dad and doesn't see anything as being a problem.
 
ajmrn30--I have the Ultimate Guzzler and I love it, but I won it in a giveaway and I would never pay so much for 1 towel. It is gigantic and has pockets so it's pretty easy to handle.

A lot of people who have used the Cobra Super-Plush said it's the best towel they have ever used, but I haven't tried it (yet :think2 ).
 
Pontman43 said:
Back to the towels... If autogeek's towels are twice the size as SMP, then wouldn't it cost around twice as much? I mean it is twice as much material. I think the original price from Autogeek is about right, now its a deal at Autogeek. But hey maybe this was a whole marketing thing for Autogeek, now its got me thinking that $6 is a deal. lol I mean a dollar for twice as much. This makes the towel seem like a deal, but still $6 for one towel. Everyone will be buying from autogeek now.

I'd hold off though, someone I know ;), is getting ready to release a pink carpet.



They are the same size (although SMP has two different sizes). Right now, actually, the Autogeek Cobra is LESS EXPENSIVE (after 10% discount) than the SMP!
 
These awards you mention I believe are based on customer surveys (at least the JD Power is). I think it goes along with the old saying "perception is reality." People perceive because they have a Lexus "L" on the front of their car that they have a high quality, defect free car.



JD Power has statistical methods to filter out such bias as all similar research firms do-the fact that Lexus wins the awards for best plants and other awards which are not based on customer surveys supports this fact. The fact is that the ES is more reliable than the Camry. That tells me something about the difference in construction.
 
They do mfg and consumer work. The link you provide is from the consumer site:



http://www.jdpower.com/news/releases/pressrelease.asp?ID=2005089



Look how far down the line Toyota is from Lexus in the bar chart. Not the same experience for sure.



Established in 1968, J.D. Power and Associates is a global marketing information firm that conducts independent and unbiased surveys of customer satisfaction, product quality and buyer behavior. Today, the firm’s services include industry-wide syndicated studies; proprietary (commissioned) tracking studies; media studies; forecasting; and training services, as well as business operations analyses, and consultancies on customer satisfaction trends. On April 1, 2005, J.D. Power and Associates became a business unit of the McGraw-Hill Companies.



They operate as a fee for hire consulting firm. The car mags have reported on their work at manufacturing facilities for instance.



Moreover, the vehicle dependability studies cover repair work done over three years as well. I think that's a pretty good indicator of reliability.



2005 Vehicle Dependability Study (VDS) Summary



The Vehicle Dependability Study (VDS), which measures problems experienced by original owners of 3-year-old (2002 model-year) vehicles, provides useful information to both consumers and the automotive industry on long-term vehicle quality. For consumers, the VDS offers insight into the reliability and dependability of brands and specific models as they approach the end of a typical warranty period. Manufacturers use this information to track the quality performance of their models over time to implement product improvement plans.
 
Here's how Lexus does in the VDS:



J.D. Power and Associates Reports:

The Automotive Industry Records Substantial Long-Term Vehicle Quality Improvements





Lexus Ranks Highest in Vehicle Dependability for the 11th Consecutive Year;

General Motors and Ford Motor Company Earn Record Number of Model Awards





WESTLAKE VILLAGE, Calif.: 29 June 2005 — The automotive industry records an impressive 12 percent improvement in long-term vehicle quality, according to the J.D. Power and Associates 2005 Vehicle Dependability StudySM (VDS) released today.



The study, which measures problems experienced by original owners of 3-year-old (2002 model-year) vehicles, provides useful information to both consumers and the automotive industry on long-term vehicle quality. For consumers, the VDS offers insight into the reliability and dependability of brands and specific models as they approach the end of a typical warranty period. Manufacturers use this information to track the quality performance of their models over time to implement product improvement plans.



At the industry level, manufacturers have made a considerable leap in quality, with improvements across all categories. The industry average improves 32 problems per 100 vehicles (PP100) compared to 2004. In addition, nearly all nameplates and 84 percent of vehicle models included in the 2005 VDS also record year-over-year improvements. The categories showing the most significant improvements in 2005 include ride, handling and braking; engine; and interior.



"While the Initial Quality Study [IQS], which measures problems experienced in the first 90 days of ownership, can be an indicator of how models will perform over time, our studies consistently show that long-term durability is a tremendously important factor to consumers," said Chance Parker, executive director of product and research analysis at J.D. Power and Associates. "As the number of problems owners experience with their vehicles increases, repurchase intent and the number of recommendations owners will make to others decreases. The study also finds that long-term durability can have a significant impact on a vehicle’s retained value."



According to actual retail transaction data from the Power Information Network, a division of J.D. Power and Associates, 3-year-old vehicles of brands that perform above the industry average in VDS typically retain $1,000 more of their value than those of brands performing below the industry average.



Lexus, which ranks highest in vehicle dependability for the 11th consecutive year, improves 14 percent (23 PP100) compared to 2004.



Porsche makes the largest percentage improvement in its VDS score, while Hyundai experiences the largest reduction in problems reported by owners. Porsche, which ranks second among nameplates, improves 38 percent compared to 2004—a 91 PP100 improvement. Although still hovering below the industry average, Hyundai records a dramatic 115 PP100 improvement (31%).



"Hyundai experienced similar levels of improvement in the 2002 IQS, when these vehicles were new, which shows a successful effort by Hyundai in translating short-term quality improvements into higher long-term quality," said Parker. "Even though there is still room for improvement, Hyundai is a great example of an automaker that is making strides toward improving vehicle quality by paying close attention to owner feedback and designing products with both short- and long-term quality in mind."



General Motors models earn eight segment awards and Ford Motor Company models receive five segments awards —a record for both GM and Ford in VDS. Toyota Motor Corporation models receive four awards.



The Lexus LS 430, which earns a score of 90 PP100, is the first model in VDS history to receive fewer than 100 PP100. The LS 430 receives the premium luxury car segment award, and Lexus also receives awards for its RX 300 (entry luxury SUV) and LX 470 (premium luxury SUV) models.



Chevrolet captures the most segment awards, with the Prizm (compact car), Malibu (entry midsize car), S-10 Pickup (midsize pickup) and Silverado HD (heavy-duty full-size pickup) each earning an award in their respective segments. Ford receives three segment awards, for the Thunderbird (entry luxury car), Windstar (midsize van) and E-Series (full-size van).



The VDS is one of three J.D. Power and Associates quality metrics, along with IQS and the Automotive Performance, Execution and Layout (APEAL) Study, which measures customer perceptions on the design, content, layout and performance of their new vehicles. The results of the 2005 IQS were released in May and the 2005 APEAL Study is scheduled for release in late September.



The 2005 Vehicle Dependability Study is based on responses from 50,635 original owners of 2002 model-year cars and light trucks. For more information on vehicle ratings, visit the J.D. Power Consumer Center at www.jdpower.com.
 
Doesn't matter who it's done by and what data they collect as it's erroneous at best. There are many people that don't know what a problem is until it causes failure. I take these things with a grain of salt and would rather know how a car was driven and taken care of than it's score in the JD survey.
 
Doesn't matter who it's done by and what data they collect as it's erroneous at best. There are many people that don't know what a problem is until it causes failure. I take these things with a grain of salt and would rather know how a car was driven and taken care of than it's score in the JD survey.



Hmm, now that I have some good supporting evidence here, you dismiss the entire JD Power organization as having erroneous data? It is a well regarded auto industry benchmark after all. Why would most consumers lie about their repair experiences? Those with trouble would be upset and vocal, those without would be happy. I think 95+% of them would be truthful in their responses no matter what car they had.



Look at the Mercedes Benz quality problems. Of all people, this group probably spent more for their car than many others, definitely Lexus. Yet they freely admitted the problems.
 
Well you see, I knew about the quality survey results long before you posted them and discounted them long before you posted them. They aren't proof of anything more than the data collected. The data is only as good as the source. The source may not be lying intentionally but by ignorance. What I see as a problem may not be seen by someone else as a problem. I'd be pissed if the hood on my new 50k dollar car was not properly aligned yet my dad is perfectly fine with that and didn't even notice it until I pointed it out. Do you see the problem yet?
 
What the real genius behind Toyota's efforts is that the upper-class Toyotas, such as Celsior, Soarer, Aristo, Windom and Altezza are performing well under another brand, which is positioned higher than the parent company. Nevertheless the vehicles I mentioned are still Toyotas, but sailing in the other parts of the world as Lexus. According to Japanese ideologies, the quality is equal, no matter what class a car is positioned in. They'll put together hard plastics with meticulous care, so the quality is first rate.



Lee, what you are talking about is the feature content, and luxury quotient, which are just the necessary spices, to flavor a car more intensive. It has nothing to do with the actual construction or engineering. Believe me, and be mindful of Platon: "Wise men talk because they have something to say; fools, because they have to say something." Try to get the focus; anyhow, you are defending Toyota, which is indeed, a great company.
 
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