Lexus Discussion Thread ( Originally Hijack in MF thread)

I'm not going to read all of this thread because it seems this topic comes up at least once a month and quite frankly it gets really really boring. Everybody really needs to change the record.



Regardless of what industry you look at, different companies sell the same product under different names at different prices.
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Can't we all just accept that and move on? :thx



Ben
 
Well I did some research and came up with more parts differences between the two:



1. Steering column and drive assembly are completely specific to Lexus.

2. Leather is the same Regency leather used in the LS.

3. Camry uses fake wood and the ES wood is real.

4. Warranty is far more comprehensive and lasts another year.

5. Guages in ES are electrochromic, an option not available in the Camry.

6. Rain sensing wipers available on ES.

7. Paint has several more coats for durability and luster. Panels are specially sanded before application.

8. No body panels are the same between the two cars.

9. Mark Levinson sound system in ES has ML designed speakers (a first) and special head unit.

10. The suspension is different on the ES.

11. Transmission has special electronics not found on Camry.

12. ES has more airbags and safety features.



This all seems reasonable to me for the $10K difference. Your mileage may vary. :)
 
SpoiledMan said:
Those are ALL cosmetic. They're still the same basic car.
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Exactly! I'll take the 10K. And once again, the transmissions on both cars are identical (both have ECT-i), as are the suspension setups.
 
A body panel is cosmetic.

A stereo can be changed and is cosmetic.

I can stiffen the suspension on ANY car so once again cosmetic.



Do you see where this is going?



I'm not trying to say that you got taken for your money but that they're the same basic car. The differences are cosmetic. I can buy a better paint job that will blow the OEM stuff out of the water. It will cost more but at any rate, it's cosmetic.
 
SilverLexus said:
Maybe we just have an honest disagreement here Sherman. I think the Cayman is a different car because it performs differently.





I believe the automatic transmission is different based on recent conversations with some car buddies of mine. The platform of both cars may be the same but again the final result is quite different. Think about rigidity in the body panels. The Camry doors are somewhat light and make a “clink� type sound when they close. The ES330 doors are heavier, smoother and make a “klunk� noise when shut. The difference is extra cross-bracing, better soundproofing materials, and better engineering. This adds up to a longer lasting car and a better fit and finish. Another example is body panel fit and finish. Look at the gap in panels on the Camry - pretty good overall but relatively wider than the ES panels. The Camry is a nice car for the money but not nearly at the same standard as the ES330. You also have to figure in differences in features that are standard and optional. You can’t get a Levinson sound system in the Camry or moveable pedals or as good a nav system.
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You should reread Bence’s post�everything you are talking about here are perceptual or QC differences, not...um...intrinsic differences. Since you are a music buff, if I take my electric guitar, and I engineer the pickups and the electronics for a different sound, but the body of the guitar is the same, have I created a different guitar, or the perception of a different guitar? Nobody is saying you didn’t get your money’s worth with your Lexus, that there isn’t more value added to it, but that, from an engineering/mfg. perspective, it’s the same car. Maybe only those of us with an engineering/mfg. background get this. Would you say that a 707 and a KC-135 are the same airplane? Of course they are not...or are they? If those detailing products that were the same color...if the little bottles had an extra ingredient in them, did that make them a different product from the big bottles, or the same product with a dash of extra stuff in them? Is the bottle half full, or half empty?



Getting back to the original post...perhaps the towels come from the same factory, but they are sorted out so that the “better� ones are sold for more? The ones with less defects...I dunno...less loose threads, more uniform stitching...does that make them different towels? Because they control the panel gap tighter on a “Lexus�, does that mean it’s not a Toyota?



By your definition if I go into a GM showroom, where they usually have 3 trims of the each car, say, a Buick LaCrosse...they have the CX, CXL, and CXS. The CXL has certain things (like leather seats) that can’t be had in a CX, while the CXS has a different engine, larger wheels, and different suspension tuning. By your definition, these are 3 different cars, but yet they are all called Buick LaCrosse. How is that different than Camry/ES? I could take that LaCrosse, put some different panels on it, change the suspension tuning and sound deadening and a hundred other things even more than the differences between the LaCrosse models, build it in the same plant, and call it the....Pontiac Grand Prix. Different car, or not?



One of the reason marketing departments exist is to convince people that similar products have real differences. Did Coke ever intend to replace Coke with “new� Coke? Or was it just clever marketing to re-energize the brand? It’s good to know that Toyota’s marketing money has been well spent at Lexus. One of our members here made some JDM mods to his Acura RSX, including the HONDA badges. OMG! Is it not really an Acura if they sell it in Japan as a Honda? I guess not....
 
Setec Astronomy said:
By your definition if I go into a GM showroom, where they usually have 3 trims of the each car, say, a Buick LaCrosse...they have the CX, CXL, and CXS. The CXL has certain things (like leather seats) that can’t be had in a CX, while the CXS has a different engine, larger wheels, and different suspension tuning. By your definition, these are 3 different cars, but yet they are all called Buick LaCrosse. How is that different than Camry/ES? I could take that LaCrosse, put some different panels on it, change the suspension tuning and sound deadening and a hundred other things even more than the differences between the LaCrosse models, build it in the same plant, and call it the....Pontiac Grand Prix. Different car, or not?
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That was gonna be my point! Great post
 
Setec Astronomy said:
Getting back to the original post...perhaps the towels come from the same factory, but they are sorted out so that the “better� ones are sold for more? The ones with less defects...I dunno...less loose threads, more uniform stitching...does that make them different towels?
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Killer post Mike! The part about the towels though is Myth Busted as AG has lowered the price already.
 
Since I'll be attending the LA Auto Show sometime this weekend, I'll be happy to shoot some pics of the transmission/engine/suspension of the Camry and ES for everyone to compare.



Chris, your just a "brainwashed" honda owner. Quit bashing us Toyota lovers! :laugh: :grinno: :lol :D =P j/k man!



Here's some food for thought: A good friend's wife was in the market for a new sedan. She looked at Lexus, Acura, Toyota and Honda. She ended up buying an Avalon. Why? Cause it takes regular gas. According to her, Acura and Lexus recommended premium. If similar models have similar engines, why does one recommend premium and the other regular?
 
RCBuddha said:
Chris, your just a "brainwashed" honda owner. Quit bashing us Toyota lovers! :laugh: :grinno: :lol :D =P
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Yeah, I'm brainwashed and I don't want anyone else to be like me that's all.:D



Here's some food for thought: A good friend's wife was in the market for a new sedan. She looked at Lexus, Acura, Toyota and Honda. She ended up buying an Avalon. Why? Cause it takes regular gas. According to her, Acura and Lexus recommended premium.
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That's where the higher HP numbers seem to come from between the two "makes" if you will. 240 HP Accords dyno pretty close to 260HP TL's when the Accord uses premium gas.
 
SpoiledMan said:
Those are ALL cosmetic. They're still the same basic car.
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Mainly true. For the manufacturer, the feature content is not that important. The main point of development is the adaptability of the platform. Yet the base is still the same.
 
Nobody is saying you didn’t get your money’s worth with your Lexus, that there isn’t more value added to it, but that, from an engineering/mfg. perspective, it’s the same car. Maybe only those of us with an engineering/mfg. background get this.
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I guess my definition of a "different car" includes one where substantial engineering and design changes have been made such as in the ES. Just sharing some common parts on the platform doesn't mean much when the steering, performance, safety features, etc. are different.



By your definition, these are 3 different cars, but yet they are all called Buick LaCrosse. How is that different than Camry/ES?
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Different trim levels on the Buick are quite different than completely different body panels and options. The Buick doesn't have a different steering componentry.



Since I'll be attending the LA Auto Show sometime this weekend, I'll be happy to shoot some pics of the transmission/engine/suspension of the Camry and ES for everyone to compare.
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Rumors are that the new LS and ES may be introduced at the Detroit and Chicago auto shows. :)
 
Setec Astronomy said:
Oh crap, you need to use premium in a TL?
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Nah, you don't have to. It has a knock sensor and it retards the timing a bit and you motor on. In most cases you can't even tell.
 
Setec Astronomy said:
Oh crap, you need to use premium in a TL?
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I *think* it's just recommended, which means you'll get full fuel economy and power with the premium. Also, the slgihtly higher power is due to higher compression ratios which sometimes need more octane.
 
SilverLexus said:
I guess my definition of a "different car" includes one where substantial engineering and design changes have been made such as in the ES. Just sharing some common parts on the platform
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That's where we disagree. IMO The changes on the whole are very minor and cosmetic. There is a lot more than you might realize that goes into engineering a car, and the platform is almost entirely shared between the two cars.
 
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