Kevin Brown Method - My understanding

[imported_Detailing Technology]

Too much "mental-masturbation" for one day. I feel like I am at work again.:down





I think its safe to say that we all impatiently await the full info on the Kevin Brown method.



Sounds like proper use of the non-diminishing abrasive will change the game. Now lets hope that swelling and IPA impervious polishes dont screw it all up.







Now go out and make some money...

 

[autoconcierge]

A Porter cable removes more defects than a rotary?, an airsander is a way different machine(which I have with all the trizact accs.......) Up until reading this thread I would have never thought to use a Flex,cyclo, pc to remove serious defects.



Now the aforementioned DA machines have their place, and some jobs I can get quite a bit of correction with my Flex DA, but removing wet sand marks and serious RIDS a DeWalt @ high speed with proper pad prime and compound will always do the trick. BTW Megs 105 and 205 have never caused a problem with filling for me, especially 205 leaves a great finish everytime.:think:

 

[gmblack3]

I have removed the equalivent of 1800 (micromesh 3600) wetsanding marks with the KBM. One area did take 2x, but it was no big deal.

 

[Accumulator]

I think people get carried away with the amount of clearcoat they are removing when they polish.





One post I have not yet seen on Autopia and most likely never will is:



Ooops! I burned through the center of my door while doing a correction. Pics (not 56k safe)

Well, leaving the Jag out of this (hey, I've been polishing that thing since '85 so of course its paint has been over-thinned), and also the MPV (where I went through *with the PC* by being carelessly aggressive around a nasty RIDS), I've removed too much clear in an effort to remove all the marring from my used M3.



I don't even need my ETG to tell me (though it confirms it), its visible in certain lighting conditions as the over-thinned areas are too light/overly metallic.



There are also some areas on my GMC that're (too?) thin too, from having been hammered by both ebpcivicsi and myself because we just weren't gonna settle for "used truck condition".



In these cases nothing goofy-aggressive was done, it just took so much abrasion to remove the defects that too much clear was removed.



That damage was done *before* I got M105 BTW, with old-school compounds and rotary work (and some mild wetsanding too).



With the PC/3.5" PFW/1Z Pasta Intensiv, I cut through the clear in two places on my friend's horribly neglected '93 Audi. Again, I wasn't doing anything irresponsible, I just went too far and it happened faster than I expected (and consider that I've been polishing Audis since the late '80s).



For that matter, the MIA (but not forgotten) Lynn went through the clear on a Benz with PC/Meg's 7006/#83 at the St. Louis g-t-g a few years ago (Mike Phillips was there when it happened).



Yeah...you really *can* take off too much clear and you don't have to be ridiculously aggressive to do it.

 

[gmblack3]

Well, leaving the Jag out of this (hey, I've been polishing that thing since '85 so of course its paint has been over-thinned), and also the MPV (where I went through *with the PC* by being carelessly aggressive around a nasty RIDS), I've removed too much clear in an effort to remove all the marring from my used M3.



I don't even need my ETG to tell me (though it confirms it), its visible in certain lighting conditions as the over-thinned areas are too light/overly metallic.



There are also some areas on my GMC that're (too?) thin too, from having been hammered by both ebpcivicsi and myself because we just weren't gonna settle for "used truck condition".



In these cases nothing goofy-aggressive was done, it just took so much abrasion to remove the defects that too much clear was removed.



That damage was done *before* I got M105 BTW, with old-school compounds and rotary work (and some mild wetsanding too).



With the PC/3.5" PFW/1Z Pasta Intensiv, I cut through the clear in two places on my friend's horribly neglected '93 Audi. Again, I wasn't doing anything irresponsible, I just went too far and it happened faster than I expected (and consider that I've been polishing Audis since the late '80s).



For that matter, the MIA (but not forgotten) Lynn went through the clear on a Benz with PC/Meg's 7006/#83 at the St. Louis g-t-g a few years ago (Mike Phillips was there when it happened).



Yeah...you really *can* take off too much clear and you don't have to be ridiculously aggressive to do it.

So you have polished about 10-15 different vehicles and most detailers I know have polished 100s. It seems that you have had issues on at least 25% of cars you have put a machine to (please correct me if I am misreading.) My guess is most detailers who have polished over 100 cars have had issues on maybe 3%.....:nixweiss

 

[tdm]

some great infomation being posted here guys ! been interesting to read !



just one question if i may,, why are people choosing to use a porter cable over a rotary with the kevin brown method, surely if it works well on a pc it would be even better by rotary for the removal of heavy defects ? thanks

 

[imported_Jakerooni]

Need I point out the obvious on this board.. But there are a LOT of people on here that may not claim to be a professional sure do spew out advice and information like they are a professional and don't try to discourage others from calling them a professional. We are getting dangerously close in this thread of that happening again. non-diminishing abrasives have been around forever. This is not new or advance technology. They used to be the very norm of what this industry was all about. We phased them out because we found the new "diminishing" abrasives to work better. Now with the newer ceramic clears and nanoclears old technology is coming back to light again. Now I'm waiting to here from the source himself on how this is supposed to work better and faster than anything else out there because I still say I'm missing something here. But so far everything that has been said is really the very fundamentals of paint correction and I can't for the life of me figure out what the hell the deal is on this? I mean (and I just know I'm going to get flack for this but..) is this the reasoning behind all these details taking 20+ hours just on the paint alone? (still can't get my head around that one at all.. And trust me I've tried many times) Are you guys just now learning faster better techniques that improve your times?

 

[SuperBee364]

So you have polished about 10-15 different vehicles and most detailers I know have polished 100s. It seems that you have had issues on at least 25% of cars you have put a machine to (please correct me if I am misreading.) My guess is most detailers who have polished over 100 cars have had issues on maybe 3%.....:nixweiss

Need I point out the obvious on this board.. But there are a LOT of people on here that may not claim to be a professional sure do spew out advice and information like they are a professional and don't try to discourage others from calling them a professional. We are getting dangerously close in this thread of that happening again. non-diminishing abrasives have been around forever. This is not new or advance technology. They used to be the very norm of what this industry was all about. We phased them out because we found the new "diminishing" abrasives to work better. Now with the newer ceramic clears and nanoclears old technology is coming back to light again. Now I'm waiting to here from the source himself on how this is supposed to work better and faster than anything else out there because I still say I'm missing something here. But so far everything that has been said is really the very fundamentals of paint correction and I can't for the life of me figure out what the hell the deal is on this? I mean (and I just know I'm going to get flack for this but..) is this the reasoning behind all these details taking 20+ hours just on the paint alone? (still can't get my head around that one at all.. And trust me I've tried many times) Are you guys just now learning faster better techniques that improve your times?

Wow, there's a couple posts with a sour note to them. Shoot, I was hoping we could have a constructive thread around here without the usual drama involved.



Jakerooni, just because a guy isn't a pro detailer, does that mean that it's not worth listening to his input? I thought Autopia was meant to be a place where *everyone* that is interested in detailing can come share experiences, insights, and opinions? :nixweiss



Maybe I'm just taking offense to your post because I definitely fall into the category that you are singling out; I am a seasonal detailer. I *am not* a pro. I do exterior only details for hire on a limited basis during the warm months. Does that mean my experiences and opinions hold no water? Guess to you the answer is yes.



As for all the hype this new process has gotten (seasoned pros as well as weekned warriors alike are excited about it), why do you feel the need to question it like you have? It's really cool that your experience goes back to when non-dimiinshing abrasives were the norm. Mine goes back that far, too, but so what? What everyone is so excited about now, is the fact that this "new" process is yielding such good results with such a time saving. Well, a time saving for those of us, that, according to you, are taking so long to do an exterior that you just can't get your head around it.



A lot of us have been stuck in the three-step correction routine for so long that this really is a new way of doing stuff. Others of us just get excited about detailing in general, whether it's a new product, a new technique, or a modern spin on both, we're just excited about detailing.



Can't we *please* keep this thread constructive wihout having to go through the whole Autopian drama thing?

 

[Driven Auto Detail]

Setec - It's time to clear your PM's! :xyxthumbs

 

[SuperBee364]

some great infomation being posted here guys ! been interesting to read !



just one question if i may,, why are people choosing to use a porter cable over a rotary with the kevin brown method, surely if it works well on a pc it would be even better by rotary for the removal of heavy defects ? thanks

I'm wondering that exact same thing too, tdm. I'm going to be doing some very extensive tests with 105 and 205 to try and find the answer.



And welcome to Autopia!

 

[imported_Detailing Technology]

Need I point out the obvious on this board.. But there are a LOT of people on here that may not claim to be a professional sure do spew out advice and information like they are a professional and don't try to discourage others from calling them a professional. We are getting dangerously close in this thread of that happening again. non-diminishing abrasives have been around forever. This is not new or advance technology. They used to be the very norm of what this industry was all about. We phased them out because we found the new "diminishing" abrasives to work better. Now with the newer ceramic clears and nanoclears old technology is coming back to light again. Now I'm waiting to here from the source himself on how this is supposed to work better and faster than anything else out there because I still say I'm missing something here. But so far everything that has been said is really the very fundamentals of paint correction and I can't for the life of me figure out what the hell the deal is on this? I mean (and I just know I'm going to get flack for this but..) is this the reasoning behind all these details taking 20+ hours just on the paint alone? (still can't get my head around that one at all.. And trust me I've tried many times) Are you guys just now learning faster better techniques that improve your times?

Couldn't have said it better myself.:thx

 

[imported_shine]

some great infomation being posted here guys ! been interesting to read !



just one question if i may,, why are people choosing to use a porter cable over a rotary with the kevin brown method, surely if it works well on a pc it would be even better by rotary for the removal of heavy defects ? thanks

Without trying this out yet, I would assume a rotary might be a bit hard to control with a large amount of pressure. I'm sure it's also easier to get holograms as a result, especially on a orange pad. Todd mentioned the Flex was a bear to control while using this method; I believe due to the forced rotation.

 

[imported_Detailing Technology]

Without trying this out yet, I would assume a rotary might be a bit hard to control with a large amount of pressure. I'm sure it's also easier to get holograms as a result, especially on a orange pad. Todd mentioned the Flex was a bear to control while using this method; I believe due to the forced rotation.

Look at the picture in my avatar.

I'm nailing that rotary into the hood of that BMW. (5.5" yellow CCS pad)

Just takes a little confidence and practice.



I'm looking forward to putting the M105 / M205 through the ringer with the PC, Makita, and I ordered another Flex just for the hell of it.

 

[PorscheGuy997]

You can apply some of Kevin's tips toward rotary polishing.



For example, pad priming (rubbing the product into all the pores of the pad) can increase the cut of polishing pads, so you don't have to use a wool or cutting. The one area that benefits most is when using a wool pad. The rotary just seems a lot smoother when the wool is primed. I also noticed a decrease in holograms.



I would not increase the pressure more than the normal level.

 

[SuperBee364]

You can apply some of Kevin's tips toward rotary polishing.



For example, pad priming (rubbing the product into all the pores of the pad) can increase the cut of polishing pads, so you don't have to use a wool or cutting. The one area that benefits most is when using a wool pad. The rotary just seems a lot smoother when the wool is primed. I also noticed a decrease in holograms.



I would not increase the pressure more than the normal level.

When I think about priming a pad, I think of spraying some QD on it. Is this what you mean, or is it best to prime it by rubbing some 105/205 into the pad first?

 

[tdm]

And welcome to Autopia!

thanks superbee ! been looking on this site for ages and decided i better get signed up and join in



it was a comment from th0001 in particular about reacing for his pc over a rotary for defect corection that caught my attention.. non diminising abrasives or not surely a rotary will always provide a better result, or does it ??



seems the answer may be it doesnt when used with certain products

 

[PorscheGuy997]

By priming the pad, I meant priming it with the actual liquid that you will be using for buffing (M105, M86, etc).





I have done comparisons with a wool pad that has been primed with M34 and a pad primed with the original M105. The difference is dramatic. I can get more cut out of the pad primed with M105 than the other pad. And, it's just plain smoother.



The problem with using a QD on the pad is that you are adding another lubricant. Since M105 and the other non-diminishing abrasive products are greatly dependent on the lubricant, you are throwing another variable in there. The theory is that a QD is making the abrasives "float" and you lose cut. This problem is very relevant when using a polishing pad.

 

[imported_Detailing Technology]

When I think about priming a pad, I think of spraying some QD on it. Is this what you mean, or is it best to prime it by rubbing some 105/205 into the pad first?

Its adding polish/compound into the pad.





I am still trying to comprehend what placing the PC on a flat microfiber covered towel and running it for 20 seconds does for priming.

 

[SuperBee364]

thanks superbee ! been looking on this site for ages and decided i better get signed up and join in

Same here. I lurked for over two years. Now they can't get me to shut up.

it was a comment from th0001 in particular about reacing for his pc over a rotary for defect corection that caught my attention.. non diminising abrasives or not surely a rotary will always provide a better result, or does it ??



seems the answer may be it doesnt when used with certain products

Yeah, most of us felt/feel exactly the same way. I haven't ever been steered wrong by following Todd's advice, though, so I am very anxious to try it out.

 

[SuperBee364]

Its adding polish/compound into the pad.



I am still trying to comprehend what placing the PC on a flat microfiber covered towel and running it for 20 seconds does for priming.

Thanks!:xyxthumbs



Yeah, I'm confused (nothing new there) about that, too. I can't see how that would be more effective than just rubbing it in with the palm of your hand.