Iron X, truly a safe product for finishes?

[imported_RedlineIRL]

I finally used the Iron X a while back, and my first use with it wasn't as great as I was hoping. I used it on the rear bumper and the backside of the trunklid where the license plate mounts, as these two places accumulate the most rail dust on my car. I first washed the entire car and dried it, then I applied the IronX and let it sit for about 5 minutes or so, then agitated it and rinsed. It was hard to tell how much iron was being removed, espeically on a red car in the evening. I whent ahead and did a second application just to be sure I was getting all the iron particles that I could out.



Although IronX did get some of the embedded rail dust out, maybe 50% of it, the stuff that has been on the car for a while was untouched. The car was previously sealed with Collinite 845 a couple washes prior to using IronX, and the protection was still visible even on the areas sprayed with IronX. Maybe the 845 was not allowing IronX to fully do it's job, or IronX just isn't up to the task of removing all rail dust.



I am going to try IronX again prior to sealing the car again, and this time I will use a citrus wash prior to applying IronX. Hopefully I will get better results that way

 

[imported_PiPUK]

I finally used the Iron X a while back, and my first use with it wasn't as great as I was hoping. I used it on the rear bumper and the backside of the trunklid where the license plate mounts, as these two places accumulate the most rail dust on my car. I first washed the entire car and dried it, then I applied the IronX and let it sit for about 5 minutes or so, then agitated it and rinsed. It was hard to tell how much iron was being removed, espeically on a red car in the evening. I whent ahead and did a second application just to be sure I was getting all the iron particles that I could out.



Although IronX did get some of the embedded rail dust out, maybe 50% of it, the stuff that has been on the car for a while was untouched. The car was previously sealed with Collinite 845 a couple washes prior to using IronX, and the protection was still visible even on the areas sprayed with IronX. Maybe the 845 was not allowing IronX to fully do it's job, or IronX just isn't up to the task of removing all rail dust.



I am going to try IronX again prior to sealing the car again, and this time I will use a citrus wash prior to applying IronX. Hopefully I will get better results that way

I would say that the Collinite is potentially an issue. Iron-X and similar are not massively effective at stripping a half decent LSP and that means that it could well be 'protecting' the underlying fallout. From my perspective, tar and iron decontamination really need to be done to a vehicle which has the LSP removed. You may be interested in searching on the matter of stripping because I have demonstrated that several detailing stalwarts for stripping of LSP do little more than leave a surfactant residue which fools a user into believing the LSP is gone, rather than actually removing it. My experience is that a citrus wash generally is insufficient to remove a good LSP like collinite. To be totally honest, this presents a problem because the only reliable method I have to remove an LSP is polishing but one really does not wish to polish if there is iron or tar present.

 

[Accumulator]

I would say that the Collinite is potentially an issue... several detailing stalwarts for stripping of LSP do little more than leave a surfactant residue which fools a user into believing the LSP is gone, rather than actually removing it. My experience is that a citrus wash generally is insufficient to remove a good LSP like collinite. To be totally honest, this presents a problem because the only reliable method I have to remove an LSP is polishing...

Agree fully that effectively stripping durable LSPs is more challenging than many might think.



IME washing with ValuGard's "A", and the...uhm, less wonderful...FK1119 *are* effective, have you ever tried either of those products?



(Heh heh, fully expect Ron Ketcham to chime in with a :nono: about the FK1119, but it's worked well for me and I have facilities that can accomodate it reasonably well. Still might be a "don't try this at home, kids!" type of thing.)

 

[imported_PiPUK]

Agree fully that effectively stripping durable LSPs is more challenging than many might think.



IME washing with ValuGard's "A", and the...uhm, less wonderful...FK1119 *are* effective, have you ever tried either of those products?



(Heh heh, fully expect Ron Ketcham to chime in with a :nono: about the FK1119, but it's worked well for me and I have facilities that can accomodate it reasonably well. Still might be a "don't try this at home, kids!" type of thing.)

I have used neither, they really are not common here in the UK.



In practice, Valugard A is an alkaline cleaner and could be equated to what we would call a TFR (traffic film remover). I suspect the truth is that valugard A will be a lot less aggressive than many of the latter which often contain high levels of sodium hydroxide/caustic soda. I actually used one such product in my testing (results posted elsewhere) and demonstrated that such a product could make a hydrophobic surface appear hydrophillic - something most people consider proof that an LSP is stripped. I further proved that such an appearance was no guarantee of stripping as I showed how I was able to recover the hydrophobic character with an IPA wipe demonstrating that the LSP was not stripped but merely hidden under a surfactant film.



The FK1119 product I know less about. A google indicates to me that it is probably a mildly alkaline, surfactant/hydrocarbon solvent emulsion. They don't seem to quote a range on composition (something obligatory in the EU) on the MSDS so it could be high, medium or low levels. In any case, the hydrocarbon solvents will probably give this product an additional element. Since there isn't clear identification of what the solvents are (?), it is hard to be definitive but the connection to make is that hydrocarbon solvents are non-polar solvents common for tar removal and LSPs are also non-polar - like dissolves like so you can see that there is potential for stripping.



I have to be honest that I find it a challenge to remove any LSP, not just the highly durable. Some of my published testing has been done with nothing more than trade (read that as $15/gallon to the end user) spray waxes.



Apologies, that is a divergence from the topic.

 

[Ron Ketcham]

Lot of years since I left Finish Kare, but if I recall, the "1119" is mainly keosene mixed with water and a very mild emulsifier.

Not good for "ground water run off".

Plus it has a tendency, in some applications, to attack the "adhesive" of many emblems on a vehicle.

Went through that one on Honda early NSX's at the port in California.

 

[imported_RedlineIRL]

Lot of years since I left Finish Kare, but if I recall, the "1119" is mainly keosene mixed with water and a very mild emulsifier.

Not good for "ground water run off".

Plus it has a tendency, in some applications, to attack the "adhesive" of many emblems on a vehicle.

Went through that one on Honda early NSX's at the port in California.

Definitely not using that then.





I may just try hitting the rear half with Dawn or spray it down with a 3:1 ratio of Optimum Power Clean to reduce the durability of 845. It may be a case where I'll just have to use IronX a few times

 

[imported_PiPUK]

Lot of years since I left Finish Kare, but if I recall, the "1119" is mainly keosene mixed with water and a very mild emulsifier.

Not good for "ground water run off".

Plus it has a tendency, in some applications, to attack the "adhesive" of many emblems on a vehicle.

Went through that one on Honda early NSX's at the port in California.

In fairness, hydrocarbon solvents are something used in huge quantity in the UK, both in large and detailing scale cleaning. If you post your desire for the removal of tar on the major UK forum, dozens of people will chime in recommending you a product which is a variation on the theme of kerosine, white spirits, xylene and even toluene. Whilst I agree with you that these will attack adhesives, it is very uncommon for someone to report their emblem to have fallen off. FK1119 is probably comparatively mild compared to the tar & glue removers which the UK fraternity like to douse their vehicles in!

Definitely not using that then.





I may just try hitting the rear half with Dawn or spray it down with a 3:1 ratio of Optimum Power Clean to reduce the durability of 845. It may be a case where I'll just have to use IronX a few times

I honestly don't believe that Dawn will help in the slightest. I believe that the best that Dawn will achieve here is to leave a surfactant residue which appears to have stripped the LSP.



Whilst hydrocarbon solvents are best avoided on paint work, most will not quickly do damage. As I said above, UK detailers will cover their vehicles in some really nasty examples of these and it is really quite rare for us to get clearcoat failure. Consider that many of the stronger alkaline vehicle cleaners are based around sodium hydroxide - the same stuff you throw down your drain if it is blocked or the stuff which is used to clean your oven. A few percent of kerosine isn't quite so scary when you use that as comparison.

 

[Accumulator]

Lot of years since I left Finish Kare, but if I recall, the "1119" is mainly keosene mixed with water and a very mild emulsifier.

Not good for "ground water run off".

Plus it has a tendency, in some applications, to attack the "adhesive" of many emblems on a vehicle.

Went through that one on Honda early NSX's at the port in California.

Heh heh, thought my post might precipitate a response from ya :chuckle:



No argue at all on any of those points, and my reference to my "proper facilities" was in regard to the runoff issue. The stuff does "strip" most everything off the surface though....heh heh, perhaps including emblems I even had it remove some "highway lane marking paint" that'd been on my '93 Audi for ages (that was according to the original owner, and yeah this stuff was *on there*); I was concerned that an extended dwell-time would compromise the oe paint, but luckily it worked out fine- yellow highway paint removed, blue oe paint and clearcoat OK. Yeah, another "don't try this at home, kids!" kind of thing for sure but I wasn't even able to chip/shave it off with..uhm...an "inappropriate tool" so I was willing to risk it.

... I was able to recover the hydrophobic character with an IPA wipe demonstrating that the LSP was not stripped but merely hidden under a surfactant film...

I've yet to try your suggested experiment with the IPA and LSP samples, but I still have it in mind. About the only time I'm genuinely concerned with whether some LSP has been stripped is when doing touchups, and I figure that if the stripping had *not* occurred I'd run into some issue indicating same.

 

[imported_PiPUK]

I've yet to try your suggested experiment with the IPA and LSP samples, but I still have it in mind. About the only time I'm genuinely concerned with whether some LSP has been stripped is when doing touchups, and I figure that if the stripping had *not* occurred I'd run into some issue indicating same.

It need not necessarily be with IPA, hot water and a wash mitt often does the job. I would be interested to see others doing this - I am willing to accept my findings are not representative but the only other conclusion is that our protection products are miles more resilient than many others on the market.



I suspect you are right that the stripping of existing LSPs is something that is needlessly concerning people. Again going against general detailing dogma, very few of the products we formulate are all that fussy about there being some previous LSP remaining. They just go over the top without any negative effects. To be honest, my suspicion (with the indication that surfactant films are probably very common occurrences) is that most products out there are quite unconcerned by a bit of contamination on the surface. I would not extend this to the really advanced coatings, of course - they genuinely need a clean surface.

 

[pwaug]

Duragloss has a new product "Squeaky Clean" that is said to leave nothing behind on the paint and remove everything from the paint--LSP, polishing oils etc. It's my understanding it was developed by using the cleaners in their 501 AIO (which has always been a powerful cleaner) but leaving out the sealant etc content. However, this is not a spray on wipe off product, but a cream that is applied by hand or DA then buffed off. While not on their website yet, it can be ordered by phone. Reports from early users are quite positive, but then I wouldn't expect it to be otherwise as every DG product I've tried has been easy to use, effective and reasonably priced.

 

[Accumulator]

PiPuk- With the coatings, I just use an abrasive polish, figuring that most any surface being coated could stand a bit of that anyhow. When switching LSPs to something that might be finicky (e.g., KSG), I generally use a known-to-be-compatible AIO if I'm not polishing.



It'd have to be pretty hot water to strip the LSPs that I generally use...e.g., FK1000P is not very heat-sensitive. I could always use the steamer, but that'd be impractical for whole-vehicle use.

 

[togwt]

Apologies for the digression from IronX wheel surface cleaning



Not meant to start an argument- but an LSP that can be removed with hot water- how much protection would that afford against environmental fallout (acid rain, etc) and if true it would be far safer than using solvents for surface preparation

 

[togwt]

Duragloss has a new product "Squeaky Clean" that is said to leave nothing behind on the paint and remove everything from the paint--LSP, polishing oils etc. It's my understanding it was developed by using the cleaners in their 501 AIO (which has always been a powerful cleaner) but leaving out the sealant etc content. However, this is not a spray on wipe off product, but a cream that is applied by hand or DA then buffed off. While not on their website yet, it can be ordered by phone. Reports from early users are quite positive, but then I wouldn't expect it to be otherwise as every DG product I've tried has been easy to use, effective and reasonably priced.

This product seems promising as a surface prep prior to the application of a coating type product. The sample I tried sheeted water and the paint surface 'squeaked' when I ran my fingers across the surface (after these highly scientific tests I'll try some really simple testing)



Just to bring the post back to original subject -



Notes:



1. 1. Be cognizant that these products were originally formulated by a German company, P21S® (Wheel Cleaner (422) Red Gel Formula) to remove ferrous oxide particulates from wheel surfaces (more specifically powder coated finishes) - to decontaminate clear coat panels see ValuGuard Decontamination System

2. Iron X Soap Gel should not be used on chrome, bare metal parts, brake callipers, wheel balancing weights, or SMART paint repairs. Mask off these areas.

3. Avoid letting Iron X Soap Gel dry on any surface.

 

[Jesstzn]

PiPuk- With the coatings, I just use an abrasive polish, figuring that most any surface being coated could stand a bit of that anyhow. When switching LSPs to something that might be finicky (e.g., KSG), I generally use a known-to-be-compatible AIO if I'm not polishing.



It'd have to be pretty hot water to strip the LSPs that I generally use...e.g., FK1000P is not very heat-sensitive. I could always use the steamer, but that'd be impractical for whole-vehicle use.

I don't know if "I" would go there .. steam in a small area could thermal shock the paint. In other words cause radical expansion in one small area and not next to it.

 

[Accumulator]

Jesstzn- Heh heh, I think I'll just go back to not worrying about stripping stuff unless I'm doing a touchup, and then I'll just use what I've always used.



OK, I too will quit all this off-topic stuff

 

[imported_PiPUK]

PiPuk- With the coatings, I just use an abrasive polish, figuring that most any surface being coated could stand a bit of that anyhow. When switching LSPs to something that might be finicky (e.g., KSG), I generally use a known-to-be-compatible AIO if I'm not polishing.



It'd have to be pretty hot water to strip the LSPs that I generally use...e.g., FK1000P is not very heat-sensitive. I could always use the steamer, but that'd be impractical for whole-vehicle use.

Apologies, we have misunderstood each other. The test I thought you meant was washing with APC/stripper shampoo/detergent based cleaner and then using IPA to remove the surfactant residue. I was suggesting the use of hot water in place of IPA because one individual questioned that the IPA would remove the LSP and that the beading which I recovered was down to a squeaky clean surface and not the LSP being uncovered (though I believe the individual who raised this was satisfied by my argument to the contrary). I was not suggesting hot water will strip LSP.

 

[Accumulator]

PiPUK- Ah, OK. Easy enough to get things mixed up when we disuss this stuff.