I have a friend that seriously underestimates the power of a PC...help me get my poin
- Thread starter slammin86
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wannafbody
wannafbody
But the real question is whether a PC can put swirls in a Delorian.
Accumulator
Well-known member
BigJimZ28 said:
Yeah, my builder messed up my stainless vanity shop in the garage and to fix it his guy spent nearly a whole day polishing the scratches out via PC. Hours and hours and hours with different polishing compounds and wool pads but eventually it ended up looking fine.
(Of course the tile guy promptly put *new* scratches in it, which I'm still living with
)
Kevin Brown
New member
Took some pics with a little 150x magnification USB camera.
I wanted to show what the Surbuf microfingers look like when they are flattened a bit.
For reference, I also took a shot of a Meguiar's W8006 SoftBuff Polishing Pad, a Meguiar's M9910 Ultimate Wipe, and a Mirka Abralon disc.
Funny thing is, my $12 Radio Shack magnifier with a built-in light works way better!
I can't figure out how to capture the shot with it, though.
With it, I can tell if a sanding disc is a coarse or fine grit, and even if it is worn out!
In the pictures, the pointer is the lead tip of a Pentel .5mm pencil:
Shot of the Meguiar's W8006 SoftBuff Polishing Pad:
Shot of the Surbuf R Series Pad:
Shot of a Meguiar's M9910 Ultimate Wipe (used and washed several times):
Mirka Abralon 4000 grit Sanding Disc:
It is interesting to see the structure of the foam pad... Easy to see why we lose so much cut!
Not a lot of surface area to force the particles into the paint as they're being moved about.
This is why pressure changes make such a difference in cut with any foam pad.
I wanted to show what the Surbuf microfingers look like when they are flattened a bit.
For reference, I also took a shot of a Meguiar's W8006 SoftBuff Polishing Pad, a Meguiar's M9910 Ultimate Wipe, and a Mirka Abralon disc.
Funny thing is, my $12 Radio Shack magnifier with a built-in light works way better!
I can't figure out how to capture the shot with it, though.
With it, I can tell if a sanding disc is a coarse or fine grit, and even if it is worn out!
In the pictures, the pointer is the lead tip of a Pentel .5mm pencil:
Shot of the Meguiar's W8006 SoftBuff Polishing Pad:
Shot of the Surbuf R Series Pad:
Shot of a Meguiar's M9910 Ultimate Wipe (used and washed several times):
Mirka Abralon 4000 grit Sanding Disc:
It is interesting to see the structure of the foam pad... Easy to see why we lose so much cut!
Not a lot of surface area to force the particles into the paint as they're being moved about.
This is why pressure changes make such a difference in cut with any foam pad.
PorscheGuy997
New member
I have been messing around with DA wetsanding and using the Surbuf on the DA for a few weeks now.
In the past, I have never tried removing wetsanding marks with the DA. The rotary does such a good job that I never tried it. But, I did take the suggestions from Kevin and gave the Surbuf pads a try.
The Surbuf pads are very different from the foam pads we normally use.
Because these pads are so different, they can remove defects that are simply unheard of.
Here's an example:
I DA sanded this scrap hood using a Mirka Abranet Soft 1500 disk.
Using a 5.5" Surbuf pad and the original formula M105 on the DA, I was able to remove the 1500 grit marks. Although there is some deep etching, you can clearly see that the marks have been removed.
The finish left by the Surbuf pad and M105 is a little hazed, but it can easily corrected with PO106FA or M205 on a polishing pad. So yes, a DA (with the right combination) can remove serious defects.
Notes about the Surbuf pad:
- The amount of product is absolutely critical. If you apply too much product, it will not remove many defects. I found that it was best to prime the pad with product and then polish the area. If you find that there is too much product on the surface, wipe it off the area and then continue polishing without adding more product.
- The amount of pressure used can also very important. Follow Kevin's guidelines and you should be fine.
- Surbuf offers many different sizes of pads. The 5.5" pads were perfect for my use, but you can choose whatever size you like.
In the past, I have never tried removing wetsanding marks with the DA. The rotary does such a good job that I never tried it. But, I did take the suggestions from Kevin and gave the Surbuf pads a try.
The Surbuf pads are very different from the foam pads we normally use.
Because these pads are so different, they can remove defects that are simply unheard of.
Here's an example:
I DA sanded this scrap hood using a Mirka Abranet Soft 1500 disk.
Using a 5.5" Surbuf pad and the original formula M105 on the DA, I was able to remove the 1500 grit marks. Although there is some deep etching, you can clearly see that the marks have been removed.
The finish left by the Surbuf pad and M105 is a little hazed, but it can easily corrected with PO106FA or M205 on a polishing pad. So yes, a DA (with the right combination) can remove serious defects.
Notes about the Surbuf pad:
- The amount of product is absolutely critical. If you apply too much product, it will not remove many defects. I found that it was best to prime the pad with product and then polish the area. If you find that there is too much product on the surface, wipe it off the area and then continue polishing without adding more product.
- The amount of pressure used can also very important. Follow Kevin's guidelines and you should be fine.
- Surbuf offers many different sizes of pads. The 5.5" pads were perfect for my use, but you can choose whatever size you like.
wannafbody
wannafbody
Does the Surbuf/PC combo work as well as a rotary and wool? The biggest issue with rotary and wool is shedding and sling.
imported_grease
New member
You can't fly to the moon, either, but that doesn't mean it can't be done...jayh2301 said:
I only use a DA...
imported_grease
New member
Besides the surbuf website, where can you get their products? Or is that where you suggest getting them?
imported_rydawg1
New member
Most woodworking stores will carry the Surbuf pads.
Kevin Brown
New member
Thanks for posting your experience, PorscheGuy997 (Chris).
Yes, while this system works well, it is a bit touchy to dial in.
This is why I do not recommend that a beginner decide to sand a panel on their car and then expect this system to work easily to remove the marks!
It takes an experienced person that knows how to properly remove sanding marks (and not panic) should things not go smoothly...
To take a few steps back, I posted this method mainly to outline a procedure that can rival a rotary polisher for paint leveling. I should have probably started a new 'paint leveling' thread. My intention was to offer an answer to the statement, "...a PC will NEVER match the power, cut, or precision of a rotary polisher..."
Give it a little practice, and this procedure will not only remove some pretty harsh paint defects... it will rival the rotary and wool pad for paint leveling.
Very exciting!
A word of caution:
On fresh paint (or paint containing flex agent), there is enough applied force with this method that the paint could 'twist'.
Paint twisting occurs when the heat and friction created by the machine, pad, buffing liquid, and applied pressure combine to alter the bond between the paint, primer, or substrate it is attached to.
What does this mean?
Well, the result of paint twist resembles the sidewall of a drag slick leaving the line. I do not have a picture to show paint twist, because it is rather rare. Maybe the next time I work on a freshly painted test panel I can try to make a twist mark.
Normally, it takes a pretty aggressive combination to twist paint.
A rotary buffer and a wool pad (or a dense foam pad) teamed with a decent amount of pressure could do it. Buffing liquids containing strong solvents increase the risk of it, too. About ten years ago I twisted a small area of paint on a bumper cladding, but I was able to sand and polish the area, repairing the damage.
In an extreme case of paint twist... the paint can actually be torn off the panel! It is rare, but I have seen it happen. A few years ago I had spent about 50 hours sanding and polishing a paint job. Someone else decided to 'touch-up' buff an small area and within a few seconds managed to twist a quarter-size piece of paint right off.
So, as with most things, proceeding with caution and common sense is an asset.
Yes, while this system works well, it is a bit touchy to dial in.
This is why I do not recommend that a beginner decide to sand a panel on their car and then expect this system to work easily to remove the marks!
It takes an experienced person that knows how to properly remove sanding marks (and not panic) should things not go smoothly...
To take a few steps back, I posted this method mainly to outline a procedure that can rival a rotary polisher for paint leveling. I should have probably started a new 'paint leveling' thread. My intention was to offer an answer to the statement, "...a PC will NEVER match the power, cut, or precision of a rotary polisher..."
Give it a little practice, and this procedure will not only remove some pretty harsh paint defects... it will rival the rotary and wool pad for paint leveling.
Very exciting!
A word of caution:
On fresh paint (or paint containing flex agent), there is enough applied force with this method that the paint could 'twist'.
Paint twisting occurs when the heat and friction created by the machine, pad, buffing liquid, and applied pressure combine to alter the bond between the paint, primer, or substrate it is attached to.
What does this mean?
Well, the result of paint twist resembles the sidewall of a drag slick leaving the line. I do not have a picture to show paint twist, because it is rather rare. Maybe the next time I work on a freshly painted test panel I can try to make a twist mark.
Normally, it takes a pretty aggressive combination to twist paint.
A rotary buffer and a wool pad (or a dense foam pad) teamed with a decent amount of pressure could do it. Buffing liquids containing strong solvents increase the risk of it, too. About ten years ago I twisted a small area of paint on a bumper cladding, but I was able to sand and polish the area, repairing the damage.
In an extreme case of paint twist... the paint can actually be torn off the panel! It is rare, but I have seen it happen. A few years ago I had spent about 50 hours sanding and polishing a paint job. Someone else decided to 'touch-up' buff an small area and within a few seconds managed to twist a quarter-size piece of paint right off.
So, as with most things, proceeding with caution and common sense is an asset.
imported_Bence
New member
I've encountered this nice delamination/twist last year on a bumper of a BMW.
Kevin Brown
New member
Ouch!
That is what it looks like sometimes.
No chance to sand that one flat!
Did that happen while you were polishing, or was it already there?
If it happened while you were polishing, what was the process you used, right before you fell to your knees screaming, "NO!!!! Not me... why...!"
Once again... plastic panel, likely has flex agent.
It does not happen often, but it certainly can rise up and bite even the most experienced paint polisher... :soscared:
That is what it looks like sometimes.
No chance to sand that one flat!
Did that happen while you were polishing, or was it already there?
If it happened while you were polishing, what was the process you used, right before you fell to your knees screaming, "NO!!!! Not me... why...!"
Once again... plastic panel, likely has flex agent.
It does not happen often, but it certainly can rise up and bite even the most experienced paint polisher... :soscared:
imported_Bence
New member
The owner was dissatisfied with his previous detailer (can't imagine why...), so he brought it to me.
AFAIK, it happened with a rotary/wool combo and some 3M compound.
AFAIK, it happened with a rotary/wool combo and some 3M compound.
David Fermani
Forza Auto Salon
Kevin Brown said:
Kevin Brown said:
Kevin Brown said:
Kevin Brown said:
Kevin Brown said:
Kevin Brown said:
Epic thread :bump:
Things and people’s opinions/workflows sure have changed since this thread began its life. I’ve tried the famous Kevin Brown Method (KBM) and now use a DA exclusively to level paint. I also feel I can get equal or better results of a rotary doing so too. But, and that’s a big but, I still feel that prior to the whole M105/DA phenomenon, there wasn’t the ability of doing so without this combo. Technology has surely been accelerated since then. No fair that you had insider information and access to products that gave heart to this whole turn in paint leveling though. :hail::smokin::thx
With that said, :rip: to my Rotary
<AND>
Long live the :waxing:
PAR Detailing
New member
David Fermani said:
Great bump David. It really is fun to read everyones opinions back then and I would love to see everyone put their opinions out now to see if its different. I too use my DA almost exclusively. I pull the rotary out for poos and giggles but my work gets done by the DA.
JohnKleven
New member
I HATE the PC polisher.. I'll just leave it at that.
Cheers!
Cheers!
C. Charles Hahn
CCH Auto Appearance, LLC
JohnKleven said:
How about not leaving it at that.... why do you "HATE" the PC?
JohnKleven
New member
Shiny Lil Detlr said:
I've had this argument before so many times, but the thing vibrates your hands numb, doesn't have enough power IMO therefore takes too long to correct something. It's fine for the home user, but is not efficient if used by a professional, since you can achieve better results much quicker with a rotary, or even a flex dual action polisher. It also feels incredibly cheaply built, which should be suspected with it's low price tag.
C. Charles Hahn
CCH Auto Appearance, LLC
JohnKleven said:
Have you used the newer generation PCs, or just the original? How about the MF DA system?
Maybe it's just because PCs are what I started and learned with early on, but they don't phase me one bit, especially when used with the best techniques I get great results fast with mine....