HBH 10sec. 93 Mustang Cobra

[imported_Asphalt Rocket]

This is the one of the Hermann's personal cars. Anyone in the Mustang world knows who Hermann is and what he can do with a Mustang. Washed the vehicle with Pinnacle soap, wheels cleaned with P21s gel and swissvax wheel brush. The paint had swirls and scratches in it. The paint was corrected using the DN method with the rotary with the following products, M105/wool, M205/Kompressor pad, and Scholls S40/CCS pad. Exhaust was cleaned with 0000 steel wool and mothers polish. There is NO lsp on this vehicle, waiting on Phil to test out his wax. All trim was removed and painted.

This what the what the swirls/scratches looked like over the whole vehicle.

This is a 50/50 using the DN method with 105/wool with the rotary after 2 passes.

Next two pics are of the rear 1/4's polished to perfection.

Just a couple finished pics in the shop. Wheels and wells cleaned in next set of pics. I always clean them last.

The rest of these pics are outside shots and one of Hermann just because he said not to post it.

 

[Old Pirate]

Love the old school way of doing thing's, It's a awesome correction job done right and it shows it...:notworthy: also how do you like the Scholls S40? and who is that with the camera?

 

[Todd@RUPES]

DN method?

 

[Harleyguy]

Sure looks great Dana,Angelo sure summed it up what else can be said the pictures tell the story.Just my luck the two best detailers i know one lives four hours away and the other lives to far to drive.Well there is a third but haven't had much luck there

 

[imported_Asphalt Rocket]

Love the old school way of doing thing's, It's a awesome correction job done right and it shows it...:notworthy: also how do you like the Scholls S40? and who is that with the camera?

Thanks Angelo, I really like the Scholls, but I should have done a 50/50 with Ultrafina. That is the world famous Mustang tuner Hermann. If you are into Mustangs then you would know who he is.

DN method?

Yes, it is the new and improved way to polish and without abusing your equipment.

Sure looks great Dana,Angelo sure summed it up what else can be said the pictures tell the story.Just my luck the two best detailers i know one lives four hours away and the other lives to far to drive.Well there is a third but haven't had much luck there

Thanks Adam, I am only a plane ticket away. You need to come up with Eric and we can see how long you can hang with us.

 

[Old Pirate]

I was thinking it was him (Hermann).

 

[Todd@RUPES]

Yes, it is the new and improved way to polish and without abusing your equipment.

I'd love to hear about it, care to share.

 

[imported_Asphalt Rocket]

I'd love to hear about it, care to share.

Sure, I will call you and explain it. It has so many pages to write it would be easier if I explain it to you. I will tell you this though, no equipment is misused or abused to achieve proper results.

 

[Todd@RUPES]

Sure, I will call you and explain it. It has so many pages to write it would be easier if I explain it to you. I will tell you this though, no equipment is misused or abused to achieve proper results.

Calling me doesn't help the forum, unless I reguritate it as my own information of course. And there is more then enough of that to go around. How about a little tease?

 

[imported_Asphalt Rocket]

Calling me doesn't help the forum, unless I reguritate it as my own information of course. And there is more then enough of that to go around. How about a little tease?

Agreed, but I already gave you a little tease from the pics and no abusing equipment. Plus I will need your help to produce a great write up since mine is short and to the point like above. You have alot more practice in write ups and could use your expertise on this subject. By the way, how does the paint look in your opinion, I put your opinion in high regards and value it greatly.

 

[imported_Luster]

Nice job on the Mustang... That red paint looks wet!:thumbup:

 

[imported_RaskyR1]

Car look great Dana! Love those old school Corbra's too! :thumbup:

 

[imported_Asphalt Rocket]

Nice job on the Mustang... That red paint looks wet!:thumbup:

Thanks Bill

Car look great Dana! Love those old school Corbra's too! :thumbup:

Thanks Chad, the 93 Cobra is probably my favorite.

 

[Todd@RUPES]

Agreed, but I already gave you a little tease from the pics and no abusing equipment. Plus I will need your help to produce a great write up since mine is short and to the point like above. You have alot more practice in write ups and could use your expertise on this subject. By the way, how does the paint look in your opinion, I put your opinion in high regards and value it greatly.

I am not aware of any process that abuses equipment, so I would be interested in knowing how the DN prevents abusing equipment to begin with. My ability to do great write ups is likely as overblown as a jar of 3 dollar wax in a 6 dollar container sold for a 1000% mark up, given my lack of grammar and spelling.

I think that your a great detailer and your work shows it.

 

[imported_Asphalt Rocket]

I am not aware of any process that abuses equipment, so I would be interested in knowing how the DN prevents abusing equipment to begin with. My ability to do great write ups is likely as overblown as a jar of 3 dollar wax in a 6 dollar container sold for a 1000% mark up, given my lack of grammar and spelling.

I think that your a great detailer and your work shows it.

First off, thanks for the compliment Todd, like I said above I value your opinion. You and I both know, plus several others that the pc is not designed to do what the KB method shows. I have no problem with the person themselves and have heard great things about him, but promoting mis-use of a tool to me is wrong. To me and numerous others the pc is being pushed to do something it is not intended to do. It is a finishing sander for wood so it is not built for any added pressure. My method is used with a rotary that achieves results you can not achieve with a pc. Anyone that uses a rotary can call their polishing/compounding their own method. Mine happens to be the DN method of way of doing things. The rotary(a quality one) can and will take a little extra pressure to achieve amazing results in the right hands. We also both know the heat from the rotary is what is going to give you those amazing results, but it is how much heat and at what pressure is the key. Then you have the time envolved between the two tools. There are certain tools for certain jobs, just like a screw driver is not suppose to be used as a pry bar.

 

[imported_blk45]

just like a screw driver is not suppose to be used as a pry bar.

ut: That's what all of my Snap On screwdrivers say, but that never stopped me!

 

[imported_Asphalt Rocket]

ut: That's what all of my Snap On screwdrivers say, but that never stopped me!

Very nice, atleast you use good tools.

 

[Todd@RUPES]

First off, thanks for the compliment Todd, like I said above I value your opinion.

No problem, I have ZERO doubts about the quality of your work and am glad to you have you post on this forum!

You and I both know, plus several others that the pc is not designed to do what the KB method shows.

I don't agree with you to a point. The same as a rotary is really a grinder/sander... Given that both a rotary (grinder/sander) and a porter cable (polisher/sander) have both been adapted for use by detailers.

I have no problem with the person themselves and have heard great things about him, but promoting mis-use of a tool to me is wrong.

Then we should, by your logic, not use rotaries as well?

To me and numerous others the pc is being pushed to do something it is not intended to do. It is a finishing sander for wood so it is not built for any added pressure.

I have used my PC (old style Meg's G100) for 3 years, and have used extra pressure and have never had a problem with it. By the same token I have burned out two Makita's (power cord issue), killed a Metabo, and destroyed a Hitachi.

My method is used with a rotary that achieves results you can not achieve with a pc.

The main advantage, IME, of a rotary is the ability to more evenly break down the abrasives in a polish. Of course the newest Meguiars polishes with the SMAT technology feature abrasives that don't break down, so that 'advantage' is completely eliminated.

I think too often (just my opinion of course) we rotary guys look at the PC as a simple tool for newbs. As such we spend way more time learning to use a rotary and wring every last drop of gloss out of it, but we never spend near the time learning how to use a dual action polisher. We never consider concepts such as torque, centripetal force, defection, and even the pattern created by the pad which is a factor of orbit speed and stroke length (this applies to 'free wheeling dual action orbitals such as the Porter Cable, the Flex on the other hand has a set pattern) so we never learn to get the full potential from the machine.

A lot is made of the Kevin Brown Method, but what it is... is simply the teachings of a fellow rotary guy who has taken the time to master dual action polishers. I think that there is a lot of potential in these machines that rotary guys never notice because there time has been focused on learning the rotary. By the way, I am still a rotary guy.

If you are telling me your method is what works best for you and your experience, fair enough. I do think that in some cases a PC and proper technique can out perform a rotary. I'm no Kevin with a DA, heck I'm probalby not even Asphalt with a rotary, but I do know that I have put way more time in learning a rotary then learning a DA, which is why my opinions used to more closely mirror yours.

Anyone that uses a rotary can call their polishing/compounding their own method. Mine happens to be the DN method of way of doing things. The rotary(a quality one) can and will take a little extra pressure to achieve amazing results in the right hands.

I use meduim pressure with a rotary, sometimes a lot of pressure.

We also both know the heat from the rotary is what is going to give you those amazing results, but it is how much heat and at what pressure is the key.

Heat is a bad thing and an unwanted side effect from the friction of the pad and the way it is distriubted. Modern, catalized clear coats can not reflow do do heat, nor does the surface become marginally softer. Dual Action polishes also create heat, but they do a BETTER job at absorbing the heat and keeping the paint's surface cooler, then a rotary, where the heat is transfered to the outside edge of a pad. Most experts that I have had intensive discussions with agree that heat does not, in any way, shape, or forum create a more level surface.

Then you have the time envolved between the two tools

.

I have saved time with a Porter Cable and 105. I will give a brief example. I was polishing an original paint Ferrari with soft single stage paint and deeper marring. After numerous medium step polishes with rotary I needed something more aggressive to remove the defects. The only problem was stepping up to a compound or a wool pad would create deeper marring or wool rings.

For the rotary my process was something like...

3M Extra Cut on a Wool Pad x 2- now I had deep wool marring. Unfortunately even 5 passes of SIP on a moderate pad didn't get the marring (or I was pushing it down).

SIP on a Meg's Burgundy pad to remove the wool marring, sometimes 2 passes...

SIP on a White LC pad to refine the finish...

Then final polishing....

Even then, some areas still had the wool rings and took even more passes...

I grabbed a 4 inch LC orange pad, M105, and three-five minutes later the section was ready for final polishing. HUGE time savings.

There are certain tools for certain jobs, just like a screw driver is not suppose to be used as a pry bar.

Again, rotaries (even products which are now sold as 'car polshing rotaries' started off as die grinders, so I am not sure I grasp the analogy. Besides I believe the new Porter Cable is being marketed as a car polisher, which is why even the older polisher was sold with a polishing pad...

 

[imported_Asphalt Rocket]

I see your points. Just by you saying you use alot of pressure at times generates that extra heat that you feel does not help with leveling paint. I would disagree with that. Heat is what helps the polish do its thing. Once again the pc is a FINISHING wood sander, therefore no pressure should be used. Porter Cable can call their new machine a polisher, a polisher is not meant to take out defects. I would agree that the rotary is/was a grinder so therefore it is a more durable tool than the pc and will take that little bit of extra pressure. I have played around with the pc and it still does not take the place of the rotary. You are going to use too much pressure with a pc to remove decfects most of the time than is was made for. I would agree in some instances that the pc will do just fine and I believe we even had a phone call about us talking about when and where the pc will and will not work. For what its worth I don't put much value into the rotaries that blew up on you, in my opinion they are of poor quality. I realize Metabo is suppose to be an excellent tool but the thermal shut off is way too sensitive. If you want to talk about a pc life I bought my dad a 7336 24 years ago and it has never given him any trouble and his hobby is woodworking, repairing antique furniture so its been put through its paces but in a correct non-abusive way. There has been several people on other forums that have used the pc and with the added pressure the poor little shaft broke. I am not going to change my opinion on what each tool can do. Like you said we both have our methods. I am no means trying to down you but I have been using a rotary for 25 years and you only have a few years under your belt so that could be the difference in the results with the rotary, not that yours are sub-par, they are great but there is always that extra little bit. I, by no means am the end all to rotary use becuase there are a few on the forums that do some incredible work and like you said above, could be and are better than me. In the above pics I used wool/105/rotary and no holograms in the 50/50 shot. It does take time to master and I appreciate the knowledge you put out there and agree your are great at doing what you do. I just don't seem to run into problems where I can not remove any wool marks of any kind and have to resort to the pc. To be honest I enjoyed having this little conversation with you, someone that understands detailing to the point you and I do. Also I guess we will have to disagree on a few points but who does agree with each other all of the time.

 

[Todd@RUPES]

I see your points. Just by you saying you use alot of pressure at times generates that extra heat that you feel does not help with leveling paint. I would disagree with that. Heat is what helps the polish do its thing.

Please explain how exactly how heat helps a polish work. Most new polishes use a clustered cerinum oxide that will break apart from friction not heat. Also when it comes to the final finish, it is more a matter of how the abrasive is moved against the paint, and the depth, or lack of depth of marring that it creates.

Once again the pc is a FINISHING wood sander, therefore no pressure should be used. Porter Cable can call their new machine a polisher, a polisher is not meant to take out defects. I would agree that the rotary is/was a grinder so therefore it is a more durable tool than the pc and will take that little bit of extra pressure.

Like I said my experience has been different. I find the PC to be very durable, but like all things that mechanical, everything has a limitation. I don't feel that using 20-30 lbs of pressure on a PC is going to wear it out any faster then a less then perfectly centered pad on a rotary will wear the bearings.

I have played around with the pc and it still does not take the place of the rotary. You are going to use too much pressure with a pc to remove decfects most of the time than is was made for. I would agree in some instances that the pc will do just fine and I believe we even had a phone call about us talking about when and where the pc will and will not work.

Certainly your experiences and mine are different. For you the PC will never replace the rotary and that is fine. I totally see where you are comming from. Of course history cannot be changed, but if you had 25 years of PCing under your belt, your views might be different.

For what its worth I don't put much value into the rotaries that blew up on you, in my opinion they are of poor quality. I realize Metabo is suppose to be an excellent tool but the thermal shut off is way too sensitive. If you want to talk about a pc life I bought my dad a 7336 24 years ago and it has never given him any trouble and his hobby is woodworking, repairing antique furniture so its been put through its paces but in a correct non-abusive way.

What rotary do you feel is better then a Makita?

There has been several people on other forums that have used the pc and with the added pressure the poor little shaft broke. I am not going to change my opinion on what each tool can do. Like you said we both have our methods

My methods are simply to learn as much about any aspect that relates to machine polishing. The more I learn the more I realize I have more to learn, which is why I will never discount any theory.

I am no means trying to down you but I have been using a rotary for 25 years and you only have a few years under your belt so that could be the difference in the results with the rotary, not that yours are sub-par, they are great but there is always that extra little bit.

I have to be careful how I word this as people take text and transform into what they want to hear, and not what they read. While I have used a rotary for 'only' 3 1/2 years or so, I would put my skills against anybody. The reason is that I know nobody who has put as much time or effort in researching every aspect of machine polishing as I have in the same time frame. This isn't to say I am the best as there, IMO, is no such thing. Most people I know with multiple years of experience are really guys who have 2 weeks of experience x how long they have been doing it.

Do think there are people as good as me with a rotary, hell I know there are. There are some amazingly talented people, but my work speaks for itself, as do my clients and their opinions of my work (the most important thing as I'm sure you would agree).

In the end it is about creating the smoothest paint surface possible, and I think, through my history of helping people understand the processes, as well as having cars that have won some of the most prestigious awards in the world, to have having client's worldwide, and being named in national publications, that I have at least proven myself in this manner. Contrary to the thoughts of a certain nobody who cannot even detail a car, let alone market a product, it hasn't been because of my sick Photoshop skills (which actually are terrible).

I just don't seem to run into problems where I can not remove any wool marks of any kind and have to resort to the pc.

Just to touch on this, I have worked with numerous detailers from around the country who have all agreed that the humidity in Florida (actually the high dew point) makes polishing very difficult. Even detailers from your neck of the woods have expressed that rotary polishing in VA vs. FL is night and day and far more difficult in Florida to them.

The reason I state this is not to say that Florida detailers are the best or that we, by default of location, are greater, but we do get weird reactions that seem to be isolated to this area of the country. The wool marring I am speaking of could simply be a factory of the humidity causing the abrasives to clump to the pad, causing the deep etching. I know that another detailer from VA said he never, ever, experienced anything like this is when he lived there. In Florida he stopped using the polishes he used to like and used to get the deeper wool marring often.

All too often, people fail to realize how even seemingly small changes in environment can place a huge difference in how everything that we do works. When I was in Chicago detailing recently I was almost blown away how easy it was compared to what I was used to. The same when I was in Canada, everything just worked so much better.

To be honest I enjoyed having this little conversation with you, someone that understands detailing to the point you and I do. Also I guess we will have to disagree on a few points but who does agree with each other all of the time.

Agreed +1000, thanks for letting us take your thread off topic. These types of logical and respectful debates are good for all that read them, IMO.