First I want to thank those of you who responed to my pevious post about needing a good quality bra for my car due to getting the hood repaired & repainted. I ordered a Colgan Custom from www.autoanything.com, & should have it in about a week. I finally got my car out of the shop yesterday & wouldn't you know it, they didn't put the hood on straight. That was what caused my problem in the first place.(This is the second time it has been repaired. Apparently the repair was done improperly the first time,about a year ago) Fortunately both repairs were done under warranty, so I'm not out any cash,so far. Again, thanks for the guidance in selecting a bra. This is without a doubt the best site for auto care & detailing.
Hazing while stopping PC on paint
- Thread starter stjules
- Start date
mikenap
New member
Hi everyone. I'm having a little issue and was wondering if the experts could help me.
I've run into a problem twice now, on 2 flat black cars, that I'm having issues resolving. While using the 105/205 twins, when I'm done with a section and turn the machine off to wipe it down, there is an obvious haze where the pad was sitting when the machine was turned off. I tried 50/50 IPA mix and this will remove some, but not all, of that stubborn haze. The only thing that completely removed it for me was TOL Prep Wash. I know there has to be a way to avoid that haziness without resorting to the Prep Wash each time. I'm also guessing that the haze has been present on other colors before, it's just never been as obvious as on the flat black.
For the record, I usually reduce pressure at the end of the buffing cycle and just use the weight of the machine when I turn it off, but I've also read to not reduce pressure at the end when doing the KBM. Both ways have left that haze for me. Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.
I've run into a problem twice now, on 2 flat black cars, that I'm having issues resolving. While using the 105/205 twins, when I'm done with a section and turn the machine off to wipe it down, there is an obvious haze where the pad was sitting when the machine was turned off. I tried 50/50 IPA mix and this will remove some, but not all, of that stubborn haze. The only thing that completely removed it for me was TOL Prep Wash. I know there has to be a way to avoid that haziness without resorting to the Prep Wash each time. I'm also guessing that the haze has been present on other colors before, it's just never been as obvious as on the flat black.
For the record, I usually reduce pressure at the end of the buffing cycle and just use the weight of the machine when I turn it off, but I've also read to not reduce pressure at the end when doing the KBM. Both ways have left that haze for me. Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.
imported_CH.Detailing
New member
Is it actually haze or just a residue?
mikenap
New member
It's actually like a hardcore residue because it WILL come off, just not easily. The polish residue all around it looks identical and it will wipe off either with just a MF, or with a little help from a QD or IPA mix. But right at the point where the machine stops spinning, it's just so tenacious that the Prep Wash was the only thing I have on hand that can touch it. And I've had issues with TOL Prep Wash before, so I don't want to break it out each time I use 205. I know this is a technique problem, so I just need a push in the right direction. Thanks.
imported_Jokeman
New member
Does this flat black paint have clear?
imported_CH.Detailing
New member
Try turning the machine off after you lift it from the paint.
imported_Stokdgs
New member
I agree with Connor above - you need to finish the end of the run you are buffing, and lift off the machine, and then, shut it off.
If you are doing light passes by this time, it should be so seamless on the paint, you will never have anything to clean up more than what little is left.
Good luck with this.
Dan F
If you are doing light passes by this time, it should be so seamless on the paint, you will never have anything to clean up more than what little is left.
Good luck with this.
Dan F
mikenap
New member
Yes, they both do. One was a Mercury Mountaineer, the other a Kia Sorrento.
I always thought that was a big no-no with DA machines? I'm still learning here, so not trying to sound argumentative, but most of the videos I've watched and articles read said to start and stop the machine while it is flat on the paint. To prevent a pad coming loose maybe? It makes sense that not stopping it on the paint would prevent this, but is there any real reason most of the stuff I've seen so far shows the user turning the machine off while still on the car?
Thanks for the help so far!
imported_CH.Detailing
New member
It shouldn't affect your polishing at all, I believe most suggest turning the machine off while still applied to the paint is to prevent any sort of 'tool abuse' that could be caused by letting the machine run without any resisting force applied to the pad. If you lower your final polishing speed or turn the machine off quickly after buffing you shouldn't run into any issues.
Todd@RUPES
Just a regular guy
If you are getting a spot of residue on the paint that is stubborn to remove (with M105/M205) you could be working the polish too long, using too much polish, or using a pad that is overly saturated.
Try reducing speed (to 3-4, but keep your pressure constant) and make one more pass over the area.
Brush and clean your pad frequently using a pad brush or towel (pressed into the pad with the machine running) to keep excess polish (and contaminated polish) for building up.
Once your pad is primed a couple light drops of product is all you really need.
Cut your work time down as well. 30 seconds should get you about as far as you are going to get with M105. If you need to work longer add a little more polish and keep going.
I always shut my DA down on the paint, to avoid splatter. If you are not getting any splatter, then the end results shouldn't matter.
Don't reduce pressure towards the end of your buffing cycle, this is going to allow for more airflow around the polish which my aggravate the problem you having.
Use a little polish, work short, and keep your pad clean and this should be issue. Also, make sure your pad isn't wet or damp.
Try reducing speed (to 3-4, but keep your pressure constant) and make one more pass over the area.
Brush and clean your pad frequently using a pad brush or towel (pressed into the pad with the machine running) to keep excess polish (and contaminated polish) for building up.
Once your pad is primed a couple light drops of product is all you really need.
Cut your work time down as well. 30 seconds should get you about as far as you are going to get with M105. If you need to work longer add a little more polish and keep going.
I always shut my DA down on the paint, to avoid splatter. If you are not getting any splatter, then the end results shouldn't matter.
Don't reduce pressure towards the end of your buffing cycle, this is going to allow for more airflow around the polish which my aggravate the problem you having.
Use a little polish, work short, and keep your pad clean and this should be issue. Also, make sure your pad isn't wet or damp.
mikenap
New member
Thanks for the tips and replies guys. The two cars in question belong to neighbors, so I should have easy access to putting these suggestions to work. Thanks again.
mikenap
New member
I just had a thought about this part Todd. If I'm keeping the pressure constant and reduce the speed on the machine, it will make the pad bog down, right? Or am I not understanding this correctly? Could you please elaborate a little on this for me? TIA
Todd@RUPES
Just a regular guy
Speed is not necessary (and almost unwanted) when final polishing your paint with a random orbital style machine polisher. There are at least 3 separate reasons why this may be the case.
First , reducing pressure (which is necessary to allow the pad to rotate faster) is will reduce the amount of motion the machine can transfer to the paint, through the pad. The way an orbital works is by mimicking the way you polish by hand if you where 'waxing on'. If you place your hand on a sponge (like a dishwashing sponge) and do little hand circles (wax on/wax off) you will notice that the top of the sponge (where you are touching it) moves with your hand/ the part of the sponge touching the counter will not move at all. The sponge will jiggle on itself like a bowl of Jell-O. If you press a little harder on the sponge you will (not hard, but firm) be able to slide the sponge across the counter top with your hand.
We want to the orbital motion of the DA to transfer in full to the paint, so even when final polishing, we want to use enough pressure to take of the slack in the pad, and cause it to lightly polish the paint.
Secondly, when you increase the pad's rotational speed (by reducing pressure) on an orbital, you cause it to create a tighter patter of curly cue's across the paint. This is a little harder to conceptualize, but as the Random Orbital works, it orbits and rotates at the same time. This causes the pad to move across the paint in a unique, curly cue pattern. The faster the rotation of the paint, the sharper the turn of the curly cue. Instead of looking like curly cue the pattern more resembles a V. This sharp turn of the pad is like digging your heel into the ground and pivoting 270 degrees. Only in the case of polishing paint it is an abrasive particle that has attached itself to the polishing pad.
The difference between slow pad speed (gray) and fast pad speed (red) is illustrated in my quick sketch below.
Thirdly, reducing pressure causes the pad to engage the paint unevenly. As the pad jiggles around (in our sponge example above) different areas of the pad are pressed into the paint with greater force then other areas. These areas are constantly changing. You see the true secret of creating gloss to level the paint as smooth as possible by 'cutting' it evenly. Reducing pressure is like wet sanding with a block vs. with your finger tips. A sanding block evenly disturbs the force across the entire sure resulting in a smooth finish. Sanding with your fingertips, however, will cause gouging and a very uneven surface. The same theory applies in creating a smooth, high gloss, 'jeweled' paint finish.
I wish I could take credit for the above, but I am fortunate to know DA polishing wizard Kevin Brown, who has patiently tutored me on DA polishing and has taken my skill with the tool to a much higher level. For a long time many detailer's conceded that a Random Orbital Polisher couldn't create the same gloss as a rotary polisher (which very evenly applies pressure to the paint and creates a very level surface). I was solidly in that boat as well, guilty of disagreeing with people who said they could get a great finish with a Random Orbital.
However since listening to Kevin I feel I can get as good, if not a better finish with a Random Orbital. I know of many high end detailers, all who built their reputations with the gloss they could create with a rotary, who know almost all finish exclusively with a Random Orbital. :thumbs:
When finishing polishing with a Random Orbital I would encourage you to try this technique.
Begin polishing as normal, using firm pressure and speed 4-5. By firm pressure I don't me hard, but rather enough to compress the foam fully, allowing it to transfer the motion of the machine completely, and engage the paint evenly. It will take a little experience, so play around with.
After a couple of passes (enough to notice a change in the appearance in the polishing film on the paint) reduce speed (not pressure) to about 3.5 and make 1-2 more passes over the area. You make have to reduce pressure slightly (to keep the pad's rotational speed the same) but should still be pressing the pad firmly across the paint. You do not want fast rotational speed for the reasons above.
That's it.
While I truly understand that most people, myself included, were taught different finishing techniques for a random orbital and many people have gotten great results doing it a variety of way, I have found that reducing pressure has reduced the gloss that I can get. Results may vary, but it may be worth trying.
As far as pad selection, the softer the pad you use, the harder you will have to press the pad in compress it. I find on all but the softest paint's, a Lake Country white foam will produce the most even, high gloss finish. You can do a section side by side with a softer pad (black for example) and see if you notice any difference in appearance (good or bad). Because of the infinite variables in detailing, and because of personal preference, the best advice I could give is try a couple different combinations and techniques and find what works best for you!
imported_CH.Detailing
New member
^ Reading stuff like that makes me all that more excited for when Kevin finally finishes his paper!
Todd@RUPES
Just a regular guy
You and me both Connor!!! :hurray:
mikenap
New member
Wow!:hurray:
Thanks for taking the time to write that, Todd. Not only did you answer my question, you explained it in a way that kept me from having to ask 17 additional ones. That was such a detailed, informative reply. I've spent most of my time at a different forum, and while helpful, I sort of slept on this one. Seems like a change may be in the air for me!
Thanks again, that was awesome!
Thanks for taking the time to write that, Todd. Not only did you answer my question, you explained it in a way that kept me from having to ask 17 additional ones. That was such a detailed, informative reply. I've spent most of my time at a different forum, and while helpful, I sort of slept on this one. Seems like a change may be in the air for me!
Thanks again, that was awesome!
Todd@RUPES
Just a regular guy
imported_Flash Gordon
New member
Speed is not necessary (and almost unwanted) when final polishing your paint with a random orbital style machine polisher. There are at least 3 separate reasons why this may be the case.
First , reducing pressure (which is necessary to allow the pad to rotate faster) is will reduce the amount of motion the machine can transfer to the paint, through the pad. The way an orbital works is by mimicking the way you polish by hand if you where 'waxing on'. If you place your hand on a sponge (like a dishwashing sponge) and do little hand circles (wax on/wax off) you will notice that the top of the sponge (where you are touching it) moves with your hand/ the part of the sponge touching the counter will not move at all. The sponge will jiggle on itself like a bowl of Jell-O. If you press a little harder on the sponge you will (not hard, but firm) be able to slide the sponge across the counter top with your hand.
We want to the orbital motion of the DA to transfer in full to the paint, so even when final polishing, we want to use enough pressure to take of the slack in the pad, and cause it to lightly polish the paint.
Secondly, when you increase the pad's rotational speed (by reducing pressure) on an orbital, you cause it to create a tighter patter of curly cue's across the paint. This is a little harder to conceptualize, but as the Random Orbital works, it orbits and rotates at the same time. This causes the pad to move across the paint in a unique, curly cue pattern. The faster the rotation of the paint, the sharper the turn of the curly cue. Instead of looking like curly cue the pattern more resembles a V. This sharp turn of the pad is like digging your heel into the ground and pivoting 270 degrees. Only in the case of polishing paint it is an abrasive particle that has attached itself to the polishing pad.
The difference between slow pad speed (gray) and fast pad speed (red) is illustrated in my quick sketch below.
Thirdly, reducing pressure causes the pad to engage the paint unevenly. As the pad jiggles around (in our sponge example above) different areas of the pad are pressed into the paint with greater force then other areas. These areas are constantly changing. You see the true secret of creating gloss to level the paint as smooth as possible by 'cutting' it evenly. Reducing pressure is like wet sanding with a block vs. with your finger tips. A sanding block evenly disturbs the force across the entire sure resulting in a smooth finish. Sanding with your fingertips, however, will cause gouging and a very uneven surface. The same theory applies in creating a smooth, high gloss, 'jeweled' paint finish.
I wish I could take credit for the above, but I am fortunate to know DA polishing wizard Kevin Brown, who has patiently tutored me on DA polishing and has taken my skill with the tool to a much higher level. For a long time many detailer's conceded that a Random Orbital Polisher couldn't create the same gloss as a rotary polisher (which very evenly applies pressure to the paint and creates a very level surface). I was solidly in that boat as well, guilty of disagreeing with people who said they could get a great finish with a Random Orbital.
However since listening to Kevin I feel I can get as good, if not a better finish with a Random Orbital. I know of many high end detailers, all who built their reputations with the gloss they could create with a rotary, who know almost all finish exclusively with a Random Orbital. :thumbs:
When finishing polishing with a Random Orbital I would encourage you to try this technique.
Begin polishing as normal, using firm pressure and speed 4-5. By firm pressure I don't me hard, but rather enough to compress the foam fully, allowing it to transfer the motion of the machine completely, and engage the paint evenly. It will take a little experience, so play around with.
After a couple of passes (enough to notice a change in the appearance in the polishing film on the paint) reduce speed (not pressure) to about 3.5 and make 1-2 more passes over the area. You make have to reduce pressure slightly (to keep the pad's rotational speed the same) but should still be pressing the pad firmly across the paint. You do not want fast rotational speed for the reasons above.
That's it.
While I truly understand that most people, myself included, were taught different finishing techniques for a random orbital and many people have gotten great results doing it a variety of way, I have found that reducing pressure has reduced the gloss that I can get. Results may vary, but it may be worth trying.
As far as pad selection, the softer the pad you use, the harder you will have to press the pad in compress it. I find on all but the softest paint's, a Lake Country white foam will produce the most even, high gloss finish. You can do a section side by side with a softer pad (black for example) and see if you notice any difference in appearance (good or bad). Because of the infinite variables in detailing, and because of personal preference, the best advice I could give is try a couple different combinations and techniques and find what works best for you!
Todd, I do beleive this is your most imformative post to date. Even someone with A.D.D.(Me) can understand what your saying
I will give you 5 stars for this gem :wizard:
Hey, where in hades in Kevin? He hasn't called me or anything. I am starting to get my feeling hurt. He is such a heartbreaker :Snowman:
Todd@RUPES
Just a regular guy
Thanks again guys 