Hardest non super sealant?

G

Guitarist302008

New member
I'm just wondering... i've had OC on my car for a while now, but i'd like to maybe go back to a sealant. I know Klasse is pretty hard stuff. I always had good luck with Collinite 915 when layered as well. Suggestions?
 
Not sure how you would even determine which sealant is the "hardest".



For pure durability (which isn't necessarily the same as protection), hard to beat Collinite for waxes and Werkstat for sealants.
 
Scottwax said:
Not sure how you would even determine which sealant is the "hardest".



For pure durability (which isn't necessarily the same as protection), hard to beat Collinite for waxes and Werkstat for sealants.
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Just more marr and element resistant
 
Guitarist302008 said:
Just more marr and element resistant
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Even though I'm currently all about FK1000P, IME the best marring/etching resistance is Klasse SG with at least six layers. I've had "oops!"-incidents where something hit the car (should've caused a real issue) with no marring whatsoever. The trick is to build the KSG up to the point that it's like a thick plasticy film. Might not be the look you'll want though.



This is the *only* wax/sealant approach I've ever experienced this with.
 
Why go back? There is nothing that is as hard. Top with a good carnauba and you have the best of both worlds.
 
Harder is not universally better. When designing products like this, contrary to what marketing might make you believe, one must be careful not to make the product too hard. Excessive cross linking can and does make coatings very hard but it makes them inflexible. Think plastic windows compared to glass. Plastic scratches much more easily but will often regain its form after a heavy impact. Glass will not damage anywhere near as easily but a heavy impact which would be absorbed by plastic can often lead to glass simply shattering. It surprises me that this is never discussed because it is something which most formulators will be well aware of.



As stated, it is mar resistance being sought. In detailing circles this is more colloquially noted as 'slickness' or 'lubricity' or similar.
 
Now that you mention the diffs between "marring resistance" and "hardness", I'm thinking that yeah...the Klasse Sealant Glaze that I find so marring-resistant isn't all that *hard* of a finish. More like a thick, but somewhat soft, layer of plastic over the paint :think:



PiPUK said:
As stated, it is mar resistance being sought. In detailing circles this is more colloquially noted as 'slickness' or 'lubricity' or similar.
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I see it differently. E.g., the Four Star Ultimate Paint Protection that I use on my S8 is the slickest, highest-lubricity LSP I've ever used, but it offers zero reistance to marring in the sense of a protective/sacrificial barrier. Yeah, it *releases contamination* very well, and that contributes to a marring-free wash if I do everything right, but it doesn't in-and-of itself protect the paint worth a [darn]. Every little thing will etch right through it, the slightest contact with [most anything] will scratch the paint right through it....basically zero "barrier type" protection compared to the KSG.



Eh, this might just be a matter of terminology, don't mean to sound all :argue
 
It is all down to terminology - as I have alluded to elsewhere, the terminology used by those in the formulating and manufacturing industry are frequently different and often in complete contradiction to the terminology used by the scientists. In this instance, mar resistance is most commonly accepted to be an attribute of a finish with a very low drag factor. What this means is that an object moving over the surface has minimal resistance and a minimised tendency to 'catch' and cause abrasive damage. Commonly there is no assumed layer which will actually protect if one applies excessive pressure. Like I say, this terminology, like many others (nano, silica content, etc) are somewhat confusing because auto care suppliers have (whether intentionally or otherwise) misused the terms in their marketing. The result is that the majority of users have little hope of reading about the science behind their chemicals because, worse than not knowing what the words mean, they believe they do understand the words so the science then becomes little more than confusing nonsense!



Anyhow, I ramble!
 
[It is all down to terminology - as I have alluded to elsewhere, the terminology used by those in the formulating and manufacturing industry are frequently different and often in complete contradiction to the terminology used by the scientists]



[...are somewhat confusing because auto care suppliers have (whether intentionally or otherwise) misused the terms in their marketing]



I would agree with this statement; the misapplication of scientific terms to marketing not only causes confusion but makes the copy writer sound more factual i.e. knows more about the subject than they actually do.



[In this instance, mar resistance is most commonly accepted to be an attribute of a finish with a very low drag factor.]



I’ve never heard of a ‘drag coefficient’ or drag factor used to describe a surface ability to resist marring. But rather its ability to minimize its resistance to airflow



Surface Hardness is generally defined as the ability of a material to resist local deformation (or penetration) from externally applied pressure, and is directly related to its tensile strength; stronger materials are generally harder.



Pencil Hardness Test - uses special graphite pencils with different degrees of hardness to scratch the coating, which then determines its hardness - Testing Your Coating's Hardness



Pencil Hardness is one of many tests that are done to evaluate a coating's performance. Other tests are abrasion, reverse impact resistance, direct impact resistance, cross-hatch adhesion, oxidation, gloss retention, UV resistance, yellowing, blistering, drying times, chemical/solvent resistance (using both the rubbing and spot/time tests), salt spray resistance, humidity resistance, acid and caustic resistance
 
TOGWT said:
[In this instance, mar resistance is most commonly accepted to be an attribute of a finish with a very low drag factor.]



I’ve never heard of a ‘drag coefficient’ or drag factor used to describe a surface ability to resist marring. But rather its ability to minimize its resistance to airflow
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Sorry, that was me using an equivalent term. It is equivalent to the lubricity/slickness as many refer to it. Effectively it means that an object will slide over the surface smoothly rather than 'grab'. Think about it, if your LSP is grabby, you probably apply more pressure to either clean or buff it than if your wash media/cloth slips over with minimial friction.
 
When I think of "hardness", my thoughts run towards the Rockwell Test/Scale. Separate from, but related to, "marring resistance", which I see as more of an, uhm....umbrella term that covers a number of factors.





PiPUK said:
Sorry, that was me using an equivalent term. It is equivalent to the lubricity/slickness as many refer to it. Effectively it means that an object will slide over the surface smoothly rather than 'grab'. Think about it, if your LSP is grabby, you probably apply more pressure to either clean or buff it than if your wash media/cloth slips over with minimial friction.
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Right, I absolutely agree with this being a significant factor in minimizing wash-induced marring, which is probably the most common kind. I just wish there were (non-coating) LSPs that combined this with the kind of "barrier" protection I can get with numerous coats of KSG!
 
I personally think worrying about and/or discussing which LSP prevents marring is overrated. Just my opinion based on my personal detailing philosophy.



No LSP can prevent door dings, shopping carts, people rubbing against your paint, birds from dropping bombs, rocks from chipping your paint, etc. I got tired of always worrying about all the stupid crap and just committed myself to regularly polishing the paint with something light like HD Speed, Poli-Seal (which I like better) or HD Polish.
 
Quenga- Noting that all birds are different...with some LSPs I've been able to basically take bird-bombs off my worry list. Don't even bother cleaning 'em off with *heavily layered* FK1000P and KSG. Seriously, no etching after they sit there for weeks. Yeah...now that I've posted this I'll probably get some awful etching from one, but no problems for for years with either of those LSPs (every other LSP is a different story though).
 
Dan said:
Why go back? There is nothing that is as hard. Top with a good carnauba and you have the best of both worlds.
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I'm just sort of tired of OC. Wax won't stick to it, and it just doesn't have that candied look that I like a sealant to have. Thought about hardbody though.
 
Accumulator said:
Quenga- Noting that all birds are different...with some LSPs I've been able to basically take bird-bombs off my worry list. Don't even bother cleaning 'em off with *heavily layered* FK1000P and KSG. Seriously, no etching after they sit there for weeks. Yeah...now that I've posted this I'll probably get some awful etching from one, but no problems for for years with either of those LSPs (every other LSP is a different story though).
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The most effective deterrent, once the paint film surface has been decontaminated, is to apply an Acrylic polyaminosiloxane or polyethylene-acrylic (Klasse, Jeff Werkstatt or Duragloss #105 Total Performance Polish) these are all sulfonic acid-based so they hold up better to acidic pollutants (acid rain, bird excrement, and etc) Layed with a sacrificial wax this provides excellent paint protection
 
TOGWT said:
The most effective deterrent, once the paint film surface has been decontaminated, is to apply an Acrylic polyaminosiloxane or polyethylene-acrylic ...[something]..sulfonic acid-based so they hold up better to acidic pollutants...
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Ah, that makes sense...never put the various factors together :o



Layed with a sacrificial wax this provides excellent paint protection..
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While I've quit topping such products, I do bet that a coat of something like Collinite paste wax that's known to protect well against environmental hazards would give a true best-of-both-worlds effect.



I suppose my QD-while-drying provides a bit of the sacrificial layer...a tiny bit, perhaps, but better than none.
 
Yeah, they all did. The Fk would be my last choice though since it looks very much like OC. 915 should do fine. You have nothing to lose.
 
Dan said:
Yeah, they all did. The Fk would be my last choice though since it looks very much like OC. 915 should do fine. You have nothing to lose.
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I actually have 2 coats of OC on my hood and roof. I had done it once, but I decided to do a light pass of Menzerna IP and then then super finish. It didn't quite remove the original coat of OC, but I then added 1 coat and another 3 hours later. It looked pretty good and the beading is much better. I'm just trying to decide if I should do the same on the sides of the car, or if I should just buff it all off and go with a standard sealant, or even try Hardbody. I really do love the candied look of sealants and DG105 is actually one of my favorites... but the last time I used that i'm sure I must have put 15 or more layers on my old Evo, it looked fantastic though.
 
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