Finer than 3000 grit?

[ZoranC]

I've never had to use anything over 3000 on autos. theres just no need imo. Why go busting out the 5 or 6000 grit paper when 2 or 3000 will do just as good a job.

Could you please describe criteria you used to decide whether there is a need and what constitutes just as good of a job because I have a feeling we are talking different goals here, my personal goal vs your goal of turning car back to customer in good enough state.

 

[David Fermani]

As I mentioned earlier, Micro-Surface doesn’t grade their papers like the rest of the world. Looking at their charts it appears their #4000 is between Meg’s P3000 and Mirka’s P4000. Of course their 6000, 8000 and 12000 are really darn fine.





PC.

Isn't Meg's a conventional style of paper = britle/stiff backing? Micro-Surface has a really soft and plyable backing on it, almost like burlap. It won't crack. I think that is the key to this product = the backing material. It reduces finger marks altogether compared to other papers out there.

 

[David Fermani]

I was wondering if I could replace clay with ultra fine sanding paper!

No - 2 different(but similar) results. Clay pulls debri out of the pores of the finish where 4000 grit paper flattens them along with the finish. Most of the time I do both. I 'll clay 1st and then sand. This also insures much less marring from catching microscopic debri in the paper. Sometimes I'm lazy and just sand though.

 

[David Fermani]

I've used higher grits before, but not on autos. I've never had to use anything over 3000 on autos. theres just no need imo. Why go busting out the 5 or 6000 grit paper when 2 or 3000 will do just as good a job. I've also had plenty of experince wetsanding.

2-3000 paper will require compounding(almost always). 4000 grit won't. After sanding with 4000 grit, I've foam padded the marring away with a very light polish. Gone/Removed! It's never coming back, not hidden or filled. Try doing that with 2000-3000 sand paper. If you trying to sand down the finish to remove defects or dirt nubs, heavy paper is the only way, but after using 4000 grit and knowing how it works, it allows you to think outside of the box and discover great uses for it.

 

[MorBid]

ZoranC:



I really think this thread is taking on at least two different discussions which may have resulted from the way you originally phrased your question.



I and it seems a lot of other folks am discussing paper and grits when it comes to "cutting" or "leveling" a painted surface.



From here

Removing the scratches from the previous step is exactly the point. Way I see it that is what leads to ultra smooth surface. But are we having a miscommunication hear. You keep using word "paper" while it is liquid polish with such fine grit I am looking for. But even if it is a paper, could one argue that polishing is same as cutting, is making surface more flat, just on much smaller scale?

You however seem to be talking about polishes/compounds.



To set things straight. Polishes and compounds cannot be compared to sanding with abrasives as they each have their own functionality. The former is known as "Chemical" abrasion" while the other "mechanical"



In fact, the more I think about it (and it took some thinking) your question is more about stepping up through different levels of polishes (with each working at a removing a specific grit of scratch) without even using any mechanical abrasion. This in hopes of producing this uber mirror like shine. Is that correct?



But every polish and compound has as it's basis the target of removing a certain defects introduced into the finish by mechanical abrasion.

 

[Envious Eric]

why not get a compound, a light compound, a lighter compound, hit the paint with 1 heavy compound, two light, two lighter, then start using pure polishes with a light cut pad until you get the desired look....or wetsand the entire car with 4000 grit, then polish it out with a few coats....you seem to be looking for a miracle product that may or may not even exist...plus the way you asked you question was VERY misleading

 

[TrueDetailer]

Could you please describe criteria you used to decide whether there is a need and what constitutes just as good of a job because I have a feeling we are talking different goals here, my personal goal vs your goal of turning car back to customer in good enough state.

Yeah we probably are talking about different goals here. I'm talking real world detailing not what i've learned on some internet forum.



What criteria did i use? Hmm, real world experince.

 

[the other pc]

Isn't Meg's a conventional style of paper = britle/stiff backing? ….

Yes, Meg’s sheets are paper backed. They recommend always using a foam sanding block/pad and soaking them well before use.



Mirka’s Abralon pads are cloth faced with a foam backing. By themselves they’re well cushioned but they can also be used with a foam block for even greater cushioning.

…Knowing that clay is abrasive afterall and process of using it reminding me of wet sanding I was wondering if I could replace clay with ultra fine sanding paper!...

Clay doesn’t work at all like sandpaper. Abrasive sheets have cutting particles that are exposed to the paint, directly cutting into the surface. Clay’s particles are imbedded inside the mass of clay. The particles aren’t exposed and mainly act on contaminants that protrude above the surface and into the clay. The more aggressive clays can have small portions of the particles penetrate the surface (think of the tip of an iceberg) but the overall effect isn’t like sandpaper.

…any liquid cleaners / polishes finer than 3000? …

Pretty much all liquid polishes are. Once you get to this level the interaction of cutting particle, pad, liquid carrier, paint and technique are far too complex to describe simply with a single number (actually paper is too but that’s a whole separate discussion topic). You really have to experiment to find a combination that gives you the ultimate gloss on your paint.





PC.

 

[imported_Detailing Technology]

I cant imagine damage on paint that I could look at and say, "Hmmm, let me hit it with 4000 grit instead of OHC or OC" (for example)



Fish Eyes, Runs, Sags, Dirt, -yes, I'd use paper, really no other choice.



A deep scratch, some key marks, acid rain remnants- yes, I'd start light with 2000-2500 3M or Mirka.

But 4000? Thats is like rubbing a dish rag on the car.



I save the higher grits (3000, 4000, 6000) for places I will have a tough time getting a 4" pad into. Then I polish by hand.

 

[David Fermani]

A deep scratch, some key marks, acid rain remnants- yes, I'd start light with 2000-2500 3M or Mirka.

But 4000? Thats is like rubbing a dish rag on the car.

Have you ever tried Micro Surface 4000 grit sandpaper before?

 

[David Fermani]

I cant imagine damage on paint that I could look at and say, "Hmmm, let me hit it with 4000 grit instead of OHC or OC" (for example)

I can and do that all the time. For example, if I'm doing a white vehicle and while I'm washing it I notice brake dust rust all over the back of it, I know I have several options to choose from to tackle the problem. Clay it, buff it, acid wash it or 4000 grit sand it. I 'usually' choose the easiest way, which is a broken-in piece of 4000 grit sandpaper (that's usually in my pocket). After washing the dirt away, I can sand the complete back 1/2 of the vehicle and remove all the rust in less than 10 minutes without marring the finish. For me (from experience) that's the easiest and quickist way for that repair. I wouldn't want to grind it off with with polish/compound. I wouldn't want to take 45-60 minutes to clay it off. I wouldn't want to set up the material to acid wash it. Sanding, for me is the most practical. There's dozens of uses for 4000 grit sanding. It definately has it's place in a pros arsenal of products.

 

[David Fermani]

Yes, Meg’s sheets are paper backed. They recommend always using a foam sanding block/pad and soaking them well before use.



Mirka’s Abralon pads are cloth faced with a foam backing. By themselves they’re well cushioned but they can also be used with a foam block for even greater cushioning.

Do you ever notice that alot of seasoned sanders fade away from using blocks when sanding? They know how to eliminate finger marks after doing it day in and day out. I walk into body shops all the time and see guys 'hand' sanding. For me, I still use a block for 1500 and 2000 grit.

 

[imported_Detailing Technology]

Not that brand of 4000 paper, no. 4000 paper yes. I will use some this weekend, I have a Ferrari F50 to wet sand, it was just completely painted on Tuesday. (Typically I do them the next day. But this one is a complicated re-assembly and I am working until Saturday) Too many complex and tight areas. I sand with the finer grits so I can hand polish in the tight spots.



I have never seen that brake dust rust on paint. Got another contaminant example? Less than 10 minutes for a complete back of a car? Wow that’s fast; I guess you can’t get it too much trouble with a piece of 4000.

 

[David Fermani]

Not that brand of 4000 paper, no. 4000 paper yes. I will use some this weekend, I have a Ferrari F50 to wet sand, it was just completely painted on Tuesday. (Typically I do them the next day. But this one is a complicated re-assembly and I am working until Saturday) Too many complex and tight areas. I sand with the finer grits so I can hand polish in the tight spots.



I have never seen that brake dust rust on paint. Got another contaminant example? Less than 10 minutes for a complete back of a car? Wow that’s fast; I guess you can’t get it too much trouble with a piece of 4000.

Are you using 4000 to remove defects from a freshly painted vehicle? That might not cut it?



Another example: paint overspray on an adjacent panel of a repainted panel. Clay won't remove it(quickly), why chance buffing it and maybe burning the edge, try dry or wet sanding it with 4000 grit(Micro Surface). In 10 seconds it's gone.



Another example: Your friend buys a brand new vehicle that's been sitting on a dealer's lot for 6 months has some rough spots on the hood and trunk after you wash it. You clay it really good, but it doesn't quite feel really smooth. Try dry sanding it with an older piece of 4000 grit. I guarantee it will feel 100% better and softer. Especially after foam padding it.



Another example: the inner wheel well lips of a light colored vehicle. Sometimes they dull out and get dirt ground into the finish. APC and solvent doesn't cut it, clay will take too long = 4000 sandpaper with APC. Gone in seconds.

 

[ZoranC]

I have a Ferrari F50 to wet sand

Can I watch? Can I please watch? I promise not to touch it, I promise not to breath, can I just please watch that car? Pretty please?

 

[ZoranC]

why not get a compound, a light compound, a lighter compound, hit the paint with 1 heavy compound, two light, two lighter ...

Isn't that in a way process I was describing earlier?



But to do that I would need to know grit equivalent of pure polish with such pad, if there is any at all. And if there is none at all I wonder what would be in between lightest compound and pure polish with gentlest pad, does it exist in liquid form (which I assume would make it easier to use than wet sanding), and if it doesn't exist in liquid form can I wet sand after I have been compunding with compund -> lighter compound -> lightest compund.

plus the way you asked you question was VERY misleading

Sorry That's noob enthusiast in me Mike has great class that kicks off weekend detailers in us in good direction but I feel need to learn more about intricacies of paint and materials to be able to ask intelligent question using right terminology and metaphors. You guys forgive the noob, right? :bolt

 

[MorBid]

it's all good :xyxthumbs

 

[ZoranC]

it's all good :xyxthumbs

Phew :heelclick So I can ask more stupid questions? :nervous2: :rofl

 

[MorBid]

As I'm sure you know there is no such thing as a stupid question. It does help if we are all on the same page though

 

[imported_Detailing Technology]

DavidF: I will give the 4000grit a try; I have previously used reducer on the adjacent panels for the overspray then follow up with polishing. Can’t deny that works like a champ!

99% of these jobs I do are wet-sands for complete repaints. They have zero contaminants. I typically sand with 3M 2000 grit to either get the finish flat like glass or I start lighter to match factory orange peel. I do have to guarantee that there will be no dirt, sags, drips, fish eyes, or swirls in my finished product. (Yes, I use a singe edge razor to trim the tit off of a drip) For the spots I cant fit a rotary, I have to sand with 2000 or 2500, 3000, 4000 so I can hand polish the rest out. If it’s been painted, the shop wants it smooth as silk and free of swirls. (engine compartments, door jambs included) The painter has been with this shop for 30 years, he one of the best at prepping the cars and lays the paint and clear very flat, the jobs arent that tough. Some of these restoration jobs can run in the $200,000 range.



ZoranC – Come see the F50, will you be in Greenwich, CT this weekend? It’s a giant, borderline ugly, flat car. Next week (My office is closed until Jan 2nd) is a metallic black Diablo SV and a red 348 Spider. Both total repaints. The spider is getting a new top which won’t be on when I am working on it, Ill have to return in the new year and polish out the damage the top installer creates. I hope I get my 4� Edge 2000 pads soon.