Finer than 3000 grit?

[ZoranC]

I see products that "address" 1500, 2000, 2500, 3000 grit. Is there such a thing that would go even finer than 3000?

 

[Envious Eric]

i have heard of 6000 grit, and even 12K grit....google it

 

[ZoranC]

i have heard of 6000 grit, and even 12K grit....google it

I know, I even have samples of "sand cloths" used for 25000 grit on plastics, but what I meant is are products ("polishes") out there we could use for 4000 and finer grit polishing and which ones. Google is not returning any to me.

 

[imported_Detailing Technology]

The 4000 grit and smaller are usually used for polishing clear plastics and model cars.



I don't think they would be of any use on automotive paint. Its a lot of manual work and you can get the same results with a liquid polish. I have used 3M compound and a wool pad to remove 800 grit sanding scratches from a newly painted car.

 

[David703]

Here is some 12,000 grit.. I don't use anything over 3000



Tools and Supplies for Building Scale Models | Micro-Mark: The Small Tool Specialists

 

[the other pc]

The 4000 grit and smaller are usually used for polishing clear plastics and model cars.



I don't think they would be of any use on automotive paint. ...

Mirka’s Abralon pads go to #4000 and work great on auto paint. They leave a scratch pattern that’s very easy to buff out. You can use them by pneumatic DA (preferable) or hand.

Here is some 12,000 grit.. I don't use anything over 3000



Tools and Supplies for Building Scale Models | Micro-Mark: The Small Tool Specialists

Micro-Mesh abrasives go super fine but you need to be careful choosing grits. They use their own numbering scale, not the standard CAMI or FEPA numbering system. Micro-Mesh’s #4000 is more like a #1500 CAMI spec’ed paper (maybe about #3000 FEPA?).





PC.

 

[SpoiledMan]

I know, I even have samples of "sand cloths" used for 25000 grit on plastics, but what I meant is are products ("polishes") out there we could use for 4000 and finer grit polishing and which ones. Google is not returning any to me.

Yeah, they've been missing your actual question.



He's asking if there are polishes that are formulated to remove sanding marks from paper rated at higher than 3000 grit. While I don't remember if there is one currently on the market that makes the claim, any good finishing polish would likely be able to polish out the really super fine sanding marks that are left. It will depend mostly on the hardness of the clear that you're working with.

 

[ZoranC]

Yeah, they've been missing your actual question.



He's asking if there are polishes that are formulated to remove sanding marks from paper rated at higher than 3000 grit.

Actually, even that is not what I am asking I am not interested in removing sanding marks. I am trying to experiment in achieving highest reflection possible. What I am trying to achieve is "mirror". When making a mirror one keeps on polishing surface with finer and finer abrasive, to level finer and finer hills and valleys, until desired result is achieved. We have polishes that address swirls as fine as 3000 grit. I want to try beyond that to see will it increase reflection. I assume more surface is mirror like clearer reflection will be and more light will be reflected. More light is reflected shinier car will look like when under the sun.

 

[MorBid]

I see products that "address" 1500, 2000, 2500, 3000 grit. Is there such a thing that would go even finer than 3000?

I don't believe you'll find much if anything along these lines and here's why.



1) Any polish that can remove one grit of scratch can remove every other higher than that. So a 1500 Grit rated product will do 2000, 3000, etc.



2) With (1) in mind there really isn't any need to formulate a product to work at say something over 3000 cause who would they sell it too in quanites enough to justify the cost of production? Very few painters/bodyshops will even go past 2000 (most go 1200 - 1500) then polish.



Your only going to get as much depth and gloss as there is Clear/Paint on the panels. Once you've "cut" all the defect out of the product your essentially working on diminished returns.



MorBiD

 

[MorBid]

Actually, even that is not what I am asking I am not interested in removing sanding marks. I am trying to experiment in achieving highest reflection possible. What I am trying to achieve is "mirror". When making a mirror one keeps on polishing surface with finer and finer abrasive, to level finer and finer hills and valleys, until desired result is achieved. We have polishes that address swirls as fine as 3000 grit. I want to try beyond that to see will it increase reflection. I assume more surface is mirror like clearer reflection will be and more light will be reflected. More light is reflected shinier car will look like when under the sun.

When they work with creating a mirror they are working with solid material that in of itself is made to be polished over and over again. Paint on the other hand is a coating that has limits (hard) to how much you can remove (when you sand you are abrading the surface and as such removing some amount of the coat) before it either won't polish back or is gone entirely at which point you are at whatever was underneath the paint to begin with.



MorBiD

 

[ZoranC]

Any polish that can remove one grit of scratch can remove every other higher than that. So a 1500 Grit rated product will do 2000, 3000, etc.

Isn't 1500 grit rated product coarser than 3000 rated one so therefore it will not make surface as smooth as pass of 1500 followed by pass of something less coarser?

Once you've "cut" all the defect out of the product your essentially working on diminished returns.

... and one or two extra steps of diminishing returns is what I want to try if it will result in even smoother surface.

Paint on the other hand is a coating that has limits (hard) to how much you can remove (when you sand you are abrading the surface and as such removing some amount of the coat) ...

I know but won't I be at that point removing so diminishing little of coat thickness that I should be well within safe range unless I was in bad situation to start off?

 

[imported_Bence]

Diminishing abrasives cut first, removing the heavier defects, then, as they break down will finish down to a high level. That's why even heavier polishes - even some compounds - can produce an LSP-ready finish.

 

[TrueDetailer]

Its a waste of money to buy. Unless you have a specific use for it, even on showcars theres no use for anything over 3000.

 

[MorBid]

Isn't 1500 grit rated product coarser than 3000 rated one so therefore it will not make surface as smooth as pass of 1500 followed by pass of something less coarser?

When talking about sandpaper or some other abrasive paper, yes the lower the number the coarser the scratch will be. However if you read the labels on most modern Polishes today they will state something like "will remove 1500 or finer sand scratches"

... and one or two extra steps of diminishing returns is what I want to try if it will result in even smoother surface.

In automotive re-finishing (bodywork and painting) we refer often to getting the finish "flat" or what I think your calling smooth.



Typically one starts off with 1200-1550 (sometimes even 800 depending on how much "leveling" needs to be done in order to get to the stated objective (make the finish flat)



Now one could stop there and begin buffing out with a pad and polish but you'll have alot more work for the polish/compound and machine to do getting that coarse of a scratch out. Or you could step back up through the grits from where you started till you get to the place you want to stop (could be 1500, 2000, 2500, 3000, 4000. etc) which will make the machine work alot easier.



But the point I'm trying to make is after you've done the initial cutting (which is what's suppose to make the paint flat) each step after that only removes the scratches made from the previous step. After 3000 your not really cutting or leveling the paint anymore, just polishing (albeit with paper) and if your not cutting your not going to get the surface flat.



Too much cutting will remove too much material and then you won't have anything left to polish to a mirror like shine, that's where the diminished return comes in.

I know but won't I be at that point removing so diminishing little of coat thickness that I should be well within safe range unless I was in bad situation to start off?

Your right in that if you are using something like 3/4/5/6K paper you won't be cutting that much of anything so you could probaly go on forever and not break the surface of the finish. But why? If your not getting anything but a shine. Polishes can do that.

 

[David Fermani]

Its a waste of money to buy. Unless you have a specific use for it, even on showcars theres no use for anything over 3000.

No offense, but I don't think this statement is based on experience. I've been using 4000 grit sandpaper for 15 years and it works awsome. It can be used wet or dry and leaves very minimal scratching. No compound is ever needed. A light polish will easily remove the minor marring created. There's times where a fresh piece of 4000 grit sandpaper left much less marring than Red Clay Magic. I reach for this sandpaper constantly and I actually keep a piece in my pocket when I detail the outside of a vehicle. I urge every professional detailer to give it a try and I know will will fall in love with it. If you think a clayed and buffed finish feel soft, it doesn't compare to one that was 4000 sanded!! Softer than butter. :drool:



P.S. The only 4000 and up grit sandpaper I've used it from Micro Surface Finishing Products.

 

[the other pc]

...P.S. The only 4000 and up grit sandpaper I've used it from Micro Surface Finishing Products.

As I mentioned earlier, Micro-Surface doesn’t grade their papers like the rest of the world. Looking at their charts it appears their #4000 is between Meg’s P3000 and Mirka’s P4000. Of course their 6000, 8000 and 12000 are really darn fine.





PC.

 

[ZoranC]

Diminishing abrasives cut first, removing the heavier defects, then, as they break down will finish down to a high level. That's why even heavier polishes - even some compounds - can produce an LSP-ready finish.

That (diminishing abrasives) was what I was having in my mind while thinking on this subject on my way home.

 

[ZoranC]

However if you read the labels on most modern Polishes today they will state something like "will remove 1500 or finer sand scratches"

Yes, but how much finer? They don't say. I guess whatever it is it is more than good enough for majority of the cases but I assume there is always something smaller than whatever they break down into. And I am very curious to try to see what it will result in, at least once to satisfy my curiosity. So I am not looking for an answer should I try it as I want to try it if I can find the product. It's the product with such specs, and in liquid form, I am looking to locate.

... after you've done the initial cutting (which is what's suppose to make the paint flat) each step after that only removes the scratches made from the previous step. After 3000 your not really cutting or leveling the paint anymore, just polishing (albeit with paper) and if your not cutting your not going to get the surface flat.

Removing the scratches from the previous step is exactly the point. Way I see it that is what leads to ultra smooth surface. But are we having a miscommunication hear. You keep using word "paper" while it is liquid polish with such fine grit I am looking for. But even if it is a paper, could one argue that polishing is same as cutting, is making surface more flat, just on much smaller scale?

Your right in that if you are using something like 3/4/5/6K paper you won't be cutting that much of anything so you could probaly go on forever and not break the surface of the finish. But why? If your not getting anything but a shine. Polishes can do that.

Getting the shine is exactly the point, and I suspect it will be different shine. Imagine the smoothest paint there can be. Then imagine applying non-abrasive coating over it. It should shine more than if paint was without scratches but not flat to start with. And everybody here says with acryllic sealants result is all about paint prep.



In any case, I plan on trying anyway and proof will be in the pudding. I just need help finding such products. Is my looking for liquid version looking in the wrong direction? Or it has to be "paper" period?

 

[ZoranC]

I've been using 4000 grit sandpaper for 15 years and it works awsome. It can be used wet or dry and leaves very minimal scratching. No compound is ever needed. A light polish will easily remove the minor marring created. There's times where a fresh piece of 4000 grit sandpaper left much less marring than Red Clay Magic. I reach for this sandpaper constantly and I actually keep a piece in my pocket when I detail the outside of a vehicle. I urge every professional detailer to give it a try and I know will will fall in love with it. If you think a clayed and buffed finish feel soft, it doesn't compare to one that was 4000 sanded!! Softer than butter. :drool:

I swear to God that is exactly what I was thinking about today! Knowing that clay is abrasive afterall and process of using it reminding me of wet sanding I was wondering if I could replace clay with ultra fine sanding paper!



I was also wondering if one is using non-one-step products would "clay -> clean -> fine clay -> polish" be shinier than "clay -> clean -> polish"?



Softer than butter is what I want! :drool:



C'mon everybody, any liquid cleaners / polishes finer than 3000? Or "paper" is only option in that area?

 

[TrueDetailer]

No offense, but I don't think this statement is based on experience. I've been using 4000 grit sandpaper for 15 years and it works awsome. It can be used wet or dry and leaves very minimal scratching. No compound is ever needed. A light polish will easily remove the minor marring created. There's times where a fresh piece of 4000 grit sandpaper left much less marring than Red Clay Magic. I reach for this sandpaper constantly and I actually keep a piece in my pocket when I detail the outside of a vehicle. I urge every professional detailer to give it a try and I know will will fall in love with it. If you think a clayed and buffed finish feel soft, it doesn't compare to one that was 4000 sanded!! Softer than butter. :drool:



P.S. The only 4000 and up grit sandpaper I've used it from Micro Surface Finishing Products.

I've used higher grits before, but not on autos. I've never had to use anything over 3000 on autos. theres just no need imo. Why go busting out the 5 or 6000 grit paper when 2 or 3000 will do just as good a job. I've also had plenty of experince wetsanding.