DON'T MESS with OLD TIMERS

[Kevin Brown]

I'm pretty sure it's this one

Ah, yes. That didn't go over so well.... :boxing:



Charlie, Scott, and Bunky: 3 :rockon: The handling of skeptical but potential members: 0 :tribe:



The idea of an association: GREAT :hifive:



The difficulty in starting and then growing one to the point of bragging about inclusion in it: VERY HIGH :wall

 

[Thomas Dekany]

Autobella, Autobella. He has done a great job over the years with marketing, because no matter what you google, he is no 1 on the list.



But have you seen his work? I should ask have you seen the work his employees turn out? Now that is a hack shop the guys are talking about above.

If you want a Portland detailer contact Tom Rennie of Autobella in Portland, Oregon he is also, perish the thought, a member of the IDA Board of Directors and his contact info can be located on the IDA website Home - The International Detailing Association under Board of Directors.



Bud Abraham



PS: Accumulator, I typed out a response to your email and it did not post. A lot of work for an older guy. Will have to do it again when I have more time.

 

[buda]

Autobella, Autobella. He has done a great job over the years with marketing, because no matter what you google, he is no 1 on the list.



But have you seen his work? I should ask have you seen the work his employees turn out? Now that is a hack shop the guys are talking about above.

First of all he has been in the detail business in Portland for years (more than 25 years) and has a great reputation as one of the best. He does work for the BMW and Mercedes dealers besides his own retail work.



As with an old man who does get to be old being stupid, you don't stay in the detail business which has a HUGE turnover by turning out shoddy work.



His work is good. I would take my cars to him if he weren't so expensive.



Are you calling him a HACK? On what basis?



Bud Abraham

 

[Barry Theal]

Hey guys, before this conversation gets ugly, lets not bash anyones business, or name were not here for that. I love a good conversation or one the draws up many opinions, but I don't think its professional to call anyone out and discredit them or there business. Keep the conversation civil.



Barry Theal

 

[gmblack3]

My two cents, which is worth less then that.....



Trolling and pissing folks off is a great way to increase membership in your organization.

 

[Accumulator]

.. you don't stay in the detail business which has a HUGE turnover by turning out shoddy work..

I think that depends on the marketplace, the clientele, the specifics of the situation :think:



The local pros in my area are successful by any measure; booked solid, happy long-term customers, making a good living at this stuff. Their work has come a long way (but it still isn't even close to what I'd want for my vehicles), but for ages they turned out simply lousy details. The kind of "lousy" that I found simply astounding. Didn't matter, their customers were perfectly satisfied and the business prospered. I actually give them a lot of credit for upping their game when they didn't really have to (at least not for business reasons). For that matter, I've always given them credit for running a successful business in a tough market, even back when they did crappy work- they put food on the table, contributed to the local tax base, and provided employment, and kept their customers happy; no skin off my nose (no clear off *my* car, either :chuckle: ).



Oh, and copy that on your having typed in a lengthy reply to me that didn't post, happens to me too and life can be too short to spend forever on these discussions. I appreciate that you bothered at all, considering I'm not a detailing professional and I'm just more or less engaging in casual online conversation.

 

[Kevin Brown]

I am convinced that I see my posts... but those to whom I am writing to do not.



First SVR, now buda.



Maybe I'm not being confrontational enough? Shucks. :caked: And gee whiz.

 

[buda]

Kevin Brown you seem to be cynic?

 

[C. Charles Hahn]

I am convinced that I see my posts... but those to whom I am writing to do not.



First SVR, now buda.



Maybe I'm not being confrontational enough? Shucks. :caked: And gee whiz.

:nana: :lol:

 

[Kevin Brown]

Kevin Brown you seem to be cynic?

No. It's raining here today. I haven't been on autopia a lot lately. So, I'm reading threads, posting stuff, working on my site.



Cynic has a few meanings.



The deal is, I took the time to partake in a thread that you started.

So I thought it would be nice to receive a response, regardless of what it may be.

Since you're answering the ones that are obviously in agreement or disagreement with you.



Funny how my second post, the one that was short and smarty and not really directed at you received a rapid response.



But the one I took 10 or 15 minutes to write, to think out... the one that I don't see as being overly critical or doubtful or mocking or self serving... received no response.



If that's cynical I guess you are right.

 

[Scottwax]

Bud-I'm not an ASE certified mechanic but I've properly rebuilt engines, done engine swaps, cam/head/intake/carburetor etc changes, changed transmissions, torque converters, rear ends, installed shifters, ignition boxes, swapped points for a breakerless ignition, tach installs, etc. Last time I put an engine in the Chevelle I used to have, from the time it was lowered into the engine bay on the hoist, I had it running in 2 hours. Not many "certified" mechanic can say the same. And all waste products, oil, anti-freeze, etc were disposed of properly. Just because someone isn't certified in something doesn't mean they don't know what they are doing. I learned how to work on cars by helping friends work on their cars and doing a lot of reading on how to do the work.



Same thing here on Autopia. I had a pretty good understanding of detailing when I joined Autopia in 2001 but I didn't know everything (no one does) so I took it upon myself to learn from others and also to pass on what I knew. That's what we do here and it is more direct than it would be taking test administered by someone 2000 miles away that has no personal involvement with me like my fellow autopians do. That is something you should be doing as well, if you truly believe in giving back. Telling people they should simply join the IDA is meaningless to me since it doesn't seem like you are willing to discuss what you feel are the right processes to detail a car. Why not make a thread about proper techniques, chemicals, tools, etc and do some teaching instead of hyping a trade association. If the goal is to raise the level of competence in the industry, you have a huge audience here who are proven to be willing to learn.

 

[C. Charles Hahn]

Very well said, Scott!

 

[buda]

Kevin, it takes time to respond to a 15 minute post.



It is on my things to do.



First have to reply to Accumulator, then you.



Never let it be said I do not reply to post directed at me. Positive or negative.



BA

 

[Bill D]

. I learned how to work on cars by helping friends work on their cars and doing a lot of reading on how to do the work.



Same thing here on Autopia. I had a pretty good understanding of detailing when I joined Autopia in 2001 but I didn't know everything (no one does) so I took it upon myself to learn from others and also to pass on what I knew.

:clap: Bullseye.



As an enthusiast, this is how I learned more about *real* detailing. I read and continue to read extensively on the subject. I scoured forums and the detailing publications for years and the real "nuggets" of info I found, I printed out for future reference. The conversations I've had with pros and other car nuts have been priceless to me and I owe this forum a great deal for all I've learned. It has provided me the near perfect to perfect results I'm always after. I am always more than happy to help out other car nuts and I've been humbled when whatever I knew really benefited them.



I would love to see an even more structured teaching section of the forum. The Guide to Detailing how to articles section is great but perhaps threads that are more formal in terms of teaching, almost like mini class courses or lectures--- perhaps an "Autopia University" forum-- would be useful.



Folks like Bud, Kevin Brown, and other very knowledgable leaders in the field can teach whatever technique they'd like to focus on. Pros and folks like me could only benefit more from it and maybe in time, that could possibly lead to something like a certification peacefully :yield: eace: :chuckle: if you guys do see true benefits of it, :nixweiss Those are just some very skeletal initial thoughts going back to the idea of incorporating Autopia and the IDA's objectives.

 

[Scottwax]

I know I learned a lot in a Meguiar's professional level class that was taught by the Mikes (Phillips and Pennington) and I've tried to pass what I learned there along to fellow autopians and enthusiast detailers who frequent the detailing forum I moderate on another board. A few fellow autopians are also members there and frequently share their knowledge and answer threads during the day that I wouldn't get to until the evening so no one has to wait long for an answer.



Thats how we give back. It isn't for monetary gain but that we all share a genuine desire to help our fellow detailers whether they be full time pros, detail on the side or just want to make their own vehicles look their best.

 

[Kevin Brown]

Kevin, it takes time to respond to a 15 minute post. It is on my things to do. First have to reply to Accumulator, then you. Never let it be said I do not reply to post directed at me. Positive or negative. BA

Bud, it's okay... I don't wish to get into anymore.

I was just trying to join a discussion that you laid the foundation for.

I come on these forums to teach and learn, to look at what other guys are doing, and to enjoy the debates. Not likely I am going to enjoy this one.



After you went defensive with the other guys, I was left wondering what the heck happened. I felt that your post came across as a bit hot, and mentioned it, but did not name call, and asked why not this or what about that? I tossed out some suggestions that I believe would benefit autopians and possibly your association.



I remember the days before forums, before the 'net. I truly felt that I must be looney or foolish to have chosen this sort of work. How many other guys out there gave a hoot about learning to buff?



How many guys knew the feeling of spending too much time on a car to master the rotary? Who else out there was driving home at 1:30 in the morning from a detail, no dinner, all dirty, beat tired, with only a few bucks in their pockets?



How many guys worked overtime to create a gloriously polished paint job, one that probably no one else would likely appreciate like they did, or I did? Turns out, there was a LOT of guys out there, and many of them are right here now.



There's a lot of pride on these forums. Telling guys in a roundabout way or directly that they are being financially foolish or have been foolish, or don't know squat and could never pass a written test is bound to stir up resentment. I think it takes a certain approach to get the point across with insulting a guy. Heck, if I want to feel bad about how I didn't get rich through detailing, I can look in the mirror for that, and certainly don't need an entire association telling me it's so!



I'll leave the financial lessons and the successful business tactics to you and other guys way smarter than me... I'll stick to the "how to buff" stuff debates.

 

[Junebug]

Thanks Kevin and Scott for saying exactly how I - and a figure quite a few others feel. I think in every trade their are guys and gals that get good at paint, plumbing, mechanics etc because they have some natural ability and they keep up with the changing times.



Then there are the guys that are still doing the same thing they did when their great grand pappy showed them a rotary, rocks in the bottle and a gallon of pink fill-n-glaze. And they're still around, and there are folks that trust them so the cycle continues.



I think I'm pretty lucky to have found Autopia and to have learned new and better techniques/products from guys like Todd, Kevin, Scott, Thomas, David, Accum, Barry, and many others over the years. I've been detailing for about 6 years now, I know for a fact that I am a better detailer than when I started and it was forums like this, good friends and the desire to never stop learning that did it. I think Autopia has done more and continues to do more than any other forum.

 

[Thomas Dekany]

Hi BUD - when I moved out here nearly 2 years ago I couldn't believe how many detail shops there were in the Portland area. They are everywhere. It turned out that not one shop (maybe 1 but I didn't see any sun shot of their cars) produces the type of work that are posted on these pages. Not one. I called and visited with the "top" shops with the best reputations. When I showed them the type of work I was interested providing, (mainly paint correction) they all looked at me like I was speaking Chinese. That included the ferrari dealership, caddilac, bmw etc... What one gets in Portland is volume shops with cheap labor. You will see $99.00 specials, $149.00 specials. What do you think one gets for that price? You get what you pay for. Regular prices are also pretty low, in fact almost uniform. Seems to me the shops are competing with their prices, instead of quality work. And I heard Tom's prices can get high. But, no matter what the charge is, your cars will not be swirl/hologram free. You also hear a lot of negative stories about his shop.



As far as your statement about not staying in business if you don't turn out good work - he is proof that it is possible. Simply because the overall quality is very low in this area. I don't mean to say that you can't get a nice interior work done or clean wheels and tires. You even get a shiny exterior. BUT PULL THAT SAME CAR INTO THE SUN OR AIM SOME LIGHT AT THE PAINT AND YOU'LL SEE WHAT YOU REALLY GET AROUND HERE.



I even had 1 shop owner ask me to do paint correction on his personal vehicle (black older A8 that was trashed) after seeing what I do. And the price he thought I should charge him? $200 while he was putting outside his A sign that said MINI DETAIL SPECIAL - $149.00 Clueless. (this owner actually did the details not just run the shop but couldn't understand that it could take me a few days to polish)



I found out that full details can be done is 6 or so hours in Portland.



All I see is "OLD SCHOOL" type of operations in Portland. A huge lack of proper training on the part of the shop owners who are themselves were never trained, turning out the same product year after year with the same tools, same products. Nothing changes. I guess it is safe that way?



Personally I am all for an organization to standardize the detailing industry. But can you imagine if you had people like Bob Willis, Barry Thiel, John Kleven, Kevin Brown etc... laying down what the standards should be? The whole industry would have to be retrained.



These message boards exist because for a small % of detailers good work is simply not good enough.



PS: I would offer to detail your cars, but if you think Tom's prices are high, you'd have a heart attack if you heard mine.



I hope I don't come across grumpy. And I sure don't mean to hurt your feelings.



BTW, last thursday this 540i was consigned to LUXE AUTOHAUS and the owner said he just had Autobella do the detail. You be the judge. I know Tom has a package for cars to be sold, but come on now.

First of all he has been in the detail business in Portland for years (more than 25 years) and has a great reputation as one of the best. He does work for the BMW and Mercedes dealers besides his own retail work.



As with an old man who does get to be old being stupid, you don't stay in the detail business which has a HUGE turnover by turning out shoddy work.



His work is good. I would take my cars to him if he weren't so expensive.



Are you calling him a HACK? On what basis?



Bud Abraham

 

[buda]

Charlie



Did not say a detailer did not have the right to call themselves a professional only asked on what basis do they do that?



What criteria do they use. Are you a professional just because you say you are?



Also joining an industry association is only one way to give back to the industry since a trade association exists to better and grow and industry. If it is not for you, then certainly do not join. But you do have to pay dues for the association to exist.



Bud Abraham

 

[C. Charles Hahn]

Charlie



Did not say a detailer did not have the right to call themselves a professional only asked on what basis do they do that?



What criteria do they use. Are you a professional just because you say you are?



Also joining an industry association is only one way to give back to the industry since a trade association exists to better and grow and industry. If it is not for you, then certainly do not join. But you do have to pay dues for the association to exist.



Bud Abraham

What the hell are you responding to? :think: