DON'T MESS with OLD TIMERS
- Thread starter buda
- Start date
David Fermani
Forza Auto Salon
Although it would be great, I think it's close to impossible and unrealistic to standardize high end paint correction as an industry standard. There just isn't a market for it unless you live in the land of Autopia. I think it's better for the people who specialize in it to just stay firmly planted in their little niche market and try to rake in all they can. That's not to say that there isn't a need for technicians/operators to step up their learning, but it has to be done with both objectivity and commonality for the sector they cater to.
Great thread by the way buda! :yo:
Great thread by the way buda! :yo:
Bill D
Hooked For Life
Bud, it depends on which customers you're thinking of. The customers of pros here already have trust in them. I'm certain new customers easily become trustworthy of them as well.
I think all the pros here more or less agree that standards and an association is a positive thing, but as it currently stands, it isn't well established enough and doesn't offer enough benefits. I'm certain there are ways to address that, that no doubt will involve much thought and effort. I wonder if Autopia would be willing to collaborate with the IDA.
I think all the pros here more or less agree that standards and an association is a positive thing, but as it currently stands, it isn't well established enough and doesn't offer enough benefits. I'm certain there are ways to address that, that no doubt will involve much thought and effort. I wonder if Autopia would be willing to collaborate with the IDA.
C. Charles Hahn
CCH Auto Appearance, LLC
Bill D said:
:clap1: Exactly.
GearHead_1
Long Time Member
I'm actually a fan of certifications by professionals. That said, the way I see it is a bit elementary. The fact that someone is certified in one area or another does not guarantee that they are good at what they do. The other side of this coin is that if a professional can't pass appropriate tests relevant to their industry, it might be a good reason to keep looking when choosing a professional.
If I'm gaging what I've read in this thread correctly, I think the above comment is pretty well understood. As someone who has been sitting back and watching this thread unfold, it's my opinion that more people have been negatively impacted, rather than drawn towards the association discussed in this thread. I know that's the way it has hit me. Just my 2 cents. Hey, I've been wrong before.
If I'm gaging what I've read in this thread correctly, I think the above comment is pretty well understood. As someone who has been sitting back and watching this thread unfold, it's my opinion that more people have been negatively impacted, rather than drawn towards the association discussed in this thread. I know that's the way it has hit me. Just my 2 cents. Hey, I've been wrong before.
David Fermani
Forza Auto Salon
GearHead_1 said:
Great comment that I can relate to. I've seen techs and shops that were ASE & I-CAR certified do hack work. Certification means nothing other than you passed a test. But, that doesn't mean that ASE & I-CAR aren't credible teaching institutions. I actually feel what they do as a positive to the auto repair industry and am happy they are doing well. With that said I also feel there could/should be a voice in the detailing industry and IDA seems to be off on the right foot. With more recognition(especially on this forum) they would get more supporters.
Bill D
Hooked For Life
David Fermani said:
I think it would be a great idea for the IDA to approach Autopia to get it's own sub forum in the Pro Detailing Forum so it can start doing that.
David Fermani
Forza Auto Salon
Bill - I do too. From my discussions with the site owner it's being considered. I'll nominate you as relationship liaison/coordinator.
Bill D
Hooked For Life
I guess that could be a good thing, if they're looking for someone enthusiastic about detailing but not tied to the actual business and profession of it.
ACCUMULATOR:
In answer to your lengthly post that starts with answering "What is a Hack" here is my reply:
Agree that a HACK is anyone who does lousy work. But the question is, "what is lousy work?" By whose standards? I know some people in the industry who have been around a long time who think they do great work and it is, as you say, lousy, by my standards, but they think they do great work.
And, I am sure there are detailers who have been trained by Meguiar's, Detail King; RightLook; Detail Plus and other training specialists in the industry who do not do very good work. Much like a doctor who just passed the college exams; the licensing board, etc. Not a super-star.
Communicating on the internet one has absolutely no way of knowing how good any detailer is, other than what they say.
Which makes me ask, if you do not know how good or knowledgeable a detailer you meet on the internet is, "how can you be confident that what they tell you to do is correct?"
What is a professional? So you say that as long as you do something as a business you are a professional?
No sure I agree. When they try to determine what you job is they always ask: "Are you a professional, meaning a doctor, dentist; lawyer, etc."
DAWN - go to Professional Carwashing & Detailing magazine's archives and look for an article on why you do not use Dawn to wash cars. It is very enlightening and specific.
Well we disagree here. It is commonly held among professionals in the paint refinishing business, not just detalers, but automotive paint companies and technicians that you need a rotary buffer to correct major problems in paint. You cannot do it with a da or orbital.
Having some formal training is a lot better than a detailer who learns their trade by trial and error. God, I hope they don't learn on my car. And, without formal training a detailer does not KNOW WHAT THEY DON'T KNOW. If you do not know you don't know how can you learn?
Anyway that is my reply.
Bud Abraham
In answer to your lengthly post that starts with answering "What is a Hack" here is my reply:
Agree that a HACK is anyone who does lousy work. But the question is, "what is lousy work?" By whose standards? I know some people in the industry who have been around a long time who think they do great work and it is, as you say, lousy, by my standards, but they think they do great work.
And, I am sure there are detailers who have been trained by Meguiar's, Detail King; RightLook; Detail Plus and other training specialists in the industry who do not do very good work. Much like a doctor who just passed the college exams; the licensing board, etc. Not a super-star.
Communicating on the internet one has absolutely no way of knowing how good any detailer is, other than what they say.
Which makes me ask, if you do not know how good or knowledgeable a detailer you meet on the internet is, "how can you be confident that what they tell you to do is correct?"
What is a professional? So you say that as long as you do something as a business you are a professional?
No sure I agree. When they try to determine what you job is they always ask: "Are you a professional, meaning a doctor, dentist; lawyer, etc."
DAWN - go to Professional Carwashing & Detailing magazine's archives and look for an article on why you do not use Dawn to wash cars. It is very enlightening and specific.
Well we disagree here. It is commonly held among professionals in the paint refinishing business, not just detalers, but automotive paint companies and technicians that you need a rotary buffer to correct major problems in paint. You cannot do it with a da or orbital.
Having some formal training is a lot better than a detailer who learns their trade by trial and error. God, I hope they don't learn on my car. And, without formal training a detailer does not KNOW WHAT THEY DON'T KNOW. If you do not know you don't know how can you learn?
Anyway that is my reply.
Bud Abraham
DaGonz
Autopia fire/rescue.
Bud.. As a 30+ year firefighter and a command officer, I have seen people come into the fire service, take every single course they can cram into their schedules. They have certifcations up the wazoo... but it is all book smarts.. some of them wouldn't know what a fire was if it came up and bit them on the arse. They have 20+ years of "experience".. or one year of experience repeated 20+ times...
Professionalism isn't a paycheck.. it's an attitude.
Ironically.. your story about the old timer has nothing to do with education other than attending the school of hard knocks. Many of the detailers here, myself included, are clean car fanatics who happened to turn their love of cars into a profession, in my case, it is a part time venture that I may turn into full time once I retire from the FD.
Professionalism isn't a paycheck.. it's an attitude.
Ironically.. your story about the old timer has nothing to do with education other than attending the school of hard knocks. Many of the detailers here, myself included, are clean car fanatics who happened to turn their love of cars into a profession, in my case, it is a part time venture that I may turn into full time once I retire from the FD.
Kevin Brown
New member
Aw, buda.
I'll stick with what I said, and not debate the merits of your association:
However, since I just spent a good deal of time on another thread discussing how I would remove sanding marks via random orbital, I must comment on this point:
To this, I'll use your line:
I think the Mobile tech Expo Person of the Year would disagree with this point. After all, he was in charge of developing a sanding and polishing system specifically for use with the random orbital:
Jason Rose of Meguiar's, Mobile Tech Expo Person of the Year.
Perhaps we should let him know that he is in stark disagreement with the IDA. Did you know that Jason stood in as an Instructor for one of your IDA members at Cypress College in Cypress, CA?
Did you know that one of your Supplier/Members of the IDA, Mike Phillips of Autogeek fame has made videos demonstrating how to sand and polish paint using only a random orbital?
Damp Sanding with Mike Phillips
I doubt that IDA Supplier/Members Cyclo Toolmakers, Inc. would agree that their sanding system, made specifically for their Dual Head Polisher , was not capable of correcting major problems in paint:
Cyclo Proshine™ and Fastcut™ Discs
Most of the guys making BIG bucks on RARE and EXPENSIVE cars are using some sort of random orbital to remove mild to severe paint defects.
Now c'mon... I admitted I was somewhat of a lop when it came to making serious dough as a detailer, when I was detailing full time. I probably made a lot of mistakes too, since I never had any formal training. Well, I worked at a detail shop for a spell, and got a certification once from Mike Pennington. But that was an afternoon long class. I'm just a car dude I guess:
About Page
So, I've laid it all out there, the good & possibly the bad in regards to my detailing skillset.
Can you admit, or at least give me a "...HRUMPH..." that you may be a little off base on your point about needing a rotary?
As for this:
That's a point I was trying to make:
So see? At least we agree on one thing.
No hard feelings I hope... just one autopian to another trying to make detailing a better lifestyle. :hippie:
I'll stick with what I said, and not debate the merits of your association:
Kevin Brown said:
However, since I just spent a good deal of time on another thread discussing how I would remove sanding marks via random orbital, I must comment on this point:
buda said:
To this, I'll use your line:
buda said:
I think the Mobile tech Expo Person of the Year would disagree with this point. After all, he was in charge of developing a sanding and polishing system specifically for use with the random orbital:
Jason Rose of Meguiar's, Mobile Tech Expo Person of the Year.
Perhaps we should let him know that he is in stark disagreement with the IDA. Did you know that Jason stood in as an Instructor for one of your IDA members at Cypress College in Cypress, CA?
Did you know that one of your Supplier/Members of the IDA, Mike Phillips of Autogeek fame has made videos demonstrating how to sand and polish paint using only a random orbital?
Damp Sanding with Mike Phillips
I doubt that IDA Supplier/Members Cyclo Toolmakers, Inc. would agree that their sanding system, made specifically for their Dual Head Polisher , was not capable of correcting major problems in paint:
Cyclo Proshine™ and Fastcut™ Discs
Most of the guys making BIG bucks on RARE and EXPENSIVE cars are using some sort of random orbital to remove mild to severe paint defects.
Now c'mon... I admitted I was somewhat of a lop when it came to making serious dough as a detailer, when I was detailing full time. I probably made a lot of mistakes too, since I never had any formal training. Well, I worked at a detail shop for a spell, and got a certification once from Mike Pennington. But that was an afternoon long class. I'm just a car dude I guess:
About Page
So, I've laid it all out there, the good & possibly the bad in regards to my detailing skillset.
Can you admit, or at least give me a "...HRUMPH..." that you may be a little off base on your point about needing a rotary?
As for this:
buda said:
That's a point I was trying to make:
Kevin Brown said:
So see? At least we agree on one thing.
No hard feelings I hope... just one autopian to another trying to make detailing a better lifestyle. :hippie:
Junebug
JAFO
Great post Kevin! I couldn't agree more.
autoconcierge
New member
I will jump in as one guy here who posted PM'd me on paint correction stuff and I said I do not comment on this anymore and well..................it got back to me that "I should get off my high horse and HELP the community", well I have .................. and still do............... but I find it ironic that those who offer the advice sometimes to "Help the community" have a financial angle as well.
As for anyone who had done more.............knows more, it is Kevin Brown end stop!, I do not see guys calling thier paint correction techniques the "The IDA system" and giving tips without financial gain is really helping "The community" as opposed to giving a tidbit of info but then saying "To learn more ..............sign up for our program" which is fine as long as you are up front about it.
As for certifacation my nephew went thru a automotive course we all see on T.V. which promises to teach and then place the young rookie techs in sweet dealership jobs, I went to his graduation and spoke to his suspension instructor(Wheel & tire) and this guy could not define "Loadforce issues" or "Bump steer" and how to compensate for road crown etc...... so it is "Garbage in / Garbage out as you are certified in the art of "Me not knowism" and the course is a money grab pure and simple as those that can do.........we all know the rest of this saying.
I will give another example, when I started out in martial arts I assumed if you had a "Black belt" you could fight.........I learned very quickly that this is not the case at all as the UFC has proved it is the the person who fights as much as it is the technique the guy uses. As for credibility, pics do not always show the true capabilities of someone's skill set....but it shows if there is a foundation of skills displayed, so some pics Bud of your "Know how" will go along way in this regard, I called out Jon Miller is the same way and still to this day I have not seen pics of any car he has worked on..........funny he "Helps the community" with unbiased advice as well.................for a price of course.
As for anyone who had done more.............knows more, it is Kevin Brown end stop!, I do not see guys calling thier paint correction techniques the "The IDA system" and giving tips without financial gain is really helping "The community" as opposed to giving a tidbit of info but then saying "To learn more ..............sign up for our program" which is fine as long as you are up front about it.
As for certifacation my nephew went thru a automotive course we all see on T.V. which promises to teach and then place the young rookie techs in sweet dealership jobs, I went to his graduation and spoke to his suspension instructor(Wheel & tire) and this guy could not define "Loadforce issues" or "Bump steer" and how to compensate for road crown etc...... so it is "Garbage in / Garbage out as you are certified in the art of "Me not knowism" and the course is a money grab pure and simple as those that can do.........we all know the rest of this saying.
I will give another example, when I started out in martial arts I assumed if you had a "Black belt" you could fight.........I learned very quickly that this is not the case at all as the UFC has proved it is the the person who fights as much as it is the technique the guy uses. As for credibility, pics do not always show the true capabilities of someone's skill set....but it shows if there is a foundation of skills displayed, so some pics Bud of your "Know how" will go along way in this regard, I called out Jon Miller is the same way and still to this day I have not seen pics of any car he has worked on..........funny he "Helps the community" with unbiased advice as well.................for a price of course.
Bill D said:
Some great posts.
Let us end this divisive discussion on the IDA and Certification with the suggestion that the IDA approach Autopia about establishing an IDA Forum here on the site, then participants can determine for themselves if they want to join the IDA and/or participate in it's programs.
That was my only intent, as a member of the IDA and supplier to the industry, to expose detailers to the IDA and it's good work on behalf of the industry.
If I offended anyone please accept my deepest apologies and let us all try to remain positive in our comments, recognizing that sometimes the written word does not really convey the intent or meaning.
Regards to all
Bud Abraham
Barry Theal
New member
Auto Concierge said:
Words spoken by a true OLD TIMER that people should listen to! No biased info there, just cut throat honesty!
eace:Yes Bob your an old timer! :nana:
Bill D
Hooked For Life
buda said:
That was a classy thing to say :bigups
Accumulator
Well-known member
buda- Thanks for taking the time to (re)post your reply, and for the reference to info regarding Dawn. You and I are simply gonna have to agree to disagree on some things, but I guess that's just the way it goes some times.
Abso-[freakin']-lutely :thumbs: I just wish that more "professionals" were, uhm...more professional, if you get my meaning.
I guess I sound like a [jerk] on this subject, but I've had to, uhm...rectify the errors of too many guys who do various stuff for a living and who consider themselves Pros.
Good heavens, that's appalling!
DaGonz said:
Abso-[freakin']-lutely :thumbs: I just wish that more "professionals" were, uhm...more professional, if you get my meaning.
I guess I sound like a [jerk] on this subject, but I've had to, uhm...rectify the errors of too many guys who do various stuff for a living and who consider themselves Pros.
Auto Concierge said:
Good heavens, that's appalling!