I've just put 3 coats of Opti-seal on my Jetta, which looks fantastic by the way, and I'm going to see if it will protect against the fine marring I get during washing. My 2003 VW Jetta GLI has very very soft black paint which mars with every wash. And before you ask, yes I two bucket wash very carefully but still get marring. I recently compared my sheep skin wash mitts with a montana boars hair brush. I polished a panel on the Jetta and washed it with the sheep skin mitt, noted the marring, then re-polished the panel and washed it with the Montana's boars hair brush. They both marred the paint but the boars hair brush left noticeably less marring than the sheep skin mitt. I sure wish an LSP could help protect against this. Anyways I will check after my next wash to see if 3 coats of opti-seal can help. I've yet to find an LSP that protects to that extent.
Can LSP's protect against wash induced marring?
- Thread starter DSVWGLI
- Start date
Lumadar said:
I couldn't be more gentle washing my car or the dirt would still be there. I wash two foot sections at a time, thoroughly rinsing the mitt or brush with the hose then rinsing it again in the rinse bucket. Wash from the top down etc. etc. I've been around a while and this is not new to me
. A majority of my customers cars stay relatively mar free between visits. This has more to do with the hardness of clear coats than the LSP or even the wash techniques, because I know they don't all use the two bucket wash method I recommend. I wonder if you can even mar the LSP it's self. A car with a very hard clear coat with an LSP recently applied to it shows no marring after a wash, but a car with a soft clear coat will show marring. The molecular structure of an LSP seems to let marring occur thorough it's self but not have, or a least not show, any marring to it's self.backwoods_lex
New member
Good question. I too was wondering if multiple sealant layers prevent some marring.
Accumulator
Well-known member
DSVWGLI- Hmm... I sure wouldn't wash a 2' x 2' area (on a dirty vehicle) before rinsing out my wash medium, but then I wouldn't use a BHB without also using a foamgun either.
Assuming the BHB passed the CD test (my Montana ones did), the marring is coming from grinding dirt against the paint, either during the washing or when drying (gentle-enough BHBs, used by themselves, are likely to leave residual dirt, they require subsequent passes with a more aggressive wash medium after the "big stuff" has been BHBed off). Note that residual dirt that's too fine to see can still cause marring.
And note that I washed very carefully for *decades* (including years of single stage black lacquer) before I got my technique sorted out. [Shoot], it took dozens of washes with the foamgun before I got that technique just right. And heh heh, it's not like I'm a slow learner Think about it..the dirt is highly abrasive (relative to the paint); just how *do* you move that abrasive dirt across the surface of the paint without causing marring? Washing without marring is simply *very* difficult.
Here's a basic test: how long is the marring? If most of the marring looks like light scratches that're *a few inches long* there's something fundamentally wrong with the wash technique. Any marring from the wash oughta be very short little scratches.
Eh, I'm not really thrilled with how parts of the above sound, hope I didn't sound all critical or anything
On the LSP issue:
The only time I've had marring that was only in the LSP (not the underlying paint) was with heavily layered KSG. And that marring was so slight as to be invisible under almost all condions.
The primary benefit of (some) LSPs is slickness and dirt-shedding. The dirt doesn't stick so it washes off easily.
Don't underestimate the importance of a great shampoo, one with great lubricity and encapsulation characteristics.
Assuming the BHB passed the CD test (my Montana ones did), the marring is coming from grinding dirt against the paint, either during the washing or when drying (gentle-enough BHBs, used by themselves, are likely to leave residual dirt, they require subsequent passes with a more aggressive wash medium after the "big stuff" has been BHBed off). Note that residual dirt that's too fine to see can still cause marring.
And note that I washed very carefully for *decades* (including years of single stage black lacquer) before I got my technique sorted out. [Shoot], it took dozens of washes with the foamgun before I got that technique just right. And heh heh, it's not like I'm a slow learner
Think about it..the dirt is highly abrasive (relative to the paint); just how *do* you move that abrasive dirt across the surface of the paint without causing marring? Washing without marring is simply *very* difficult.Here's a basic test: how long is the marring? If most of the marring looks like light scratches that're *a few inches long* there's something fundamentally wrong with the wash technique. Any marring from the wash oughta be very short little scratches.
Eh, I'm not really thrilled with how parts of the above sound, hope I didn't sound all critical or anything
On the LSP issue:
The only time I've had marring that was only in the LSP (not the underlying paint) was with heavily layered KSG. And that marring was so slight as to be invisible under almost all condions.
The primary benefit of (some) LSPs is slickness and dirt-shedding. The dirt doesn't stick so it washes off easily.
Don't underestimate the importance of a great shampoo, one with great lubricity and encapsulation characteristics.
backwoods_lex said:
LSP's must stay pliable enough to allow wash media to contact the paint but still remain in place to continue to provide even protection. Does the LSP get pushed around on the surface to some extent during a wash? Does it remain in place and part like the red sea when a hair from a brush or mitt comes in contact with it? Questions I've always wondered about.
Accumulator
Well-known member
DSVWGLI said:
Nah, the wash media contact the LSP, which is a coating on top of the paint. Marring happens *through* the LSP, either a direct cut-through, or more often, an impression made with the LSP staying intact. It's like putting a sheet of cling-wrap on your paint and pressing against it- you still get marring even if you don't cut/tear through the wrap.
Accumulator said:
Hey Accum, are Griot's boars hair brushes Montana brushes with Griot's name on them? Or have you just used both in the past.
Another question, on average, how many washes do you get from a typical boars hair brush?
Back to the OP, it sounds to me like you are going to have to get a foam gun or just accept marring. However, Scottwax has said numerous times that he does not get marring with ONR. I need to learn his technique because with most paint, ONR is just fine but for stupid soft paint, I cannot avoid swirling with ONR even if I double the concentration.
Accumulator
Well-known member
bert31 said:
The BHBs I've bought from Griot's were different. See my BHB comparison thread in the Detailing Products forum (you could search on my user-name as I don't *originate* all that many threads).
Short version: my Griot's BHBs are slightly more aggressive than my Montanas but still paint-safe. The Griot's ones are my most frequently used BHBs.
Zillions, but I do still CD-test 'em now and then. When the flagging wears off the tips of the bristles (after years of use IME) they will start to mar. Again, check out that thread for more info.
Eh..I hope I'm not mistaken/mis-speaking Re the Montanas :think: The ones I'm referring to are the wood-handled, long-bristle ones from AutoGeek.
Accumulator said:DSVWGLI- Hmm... I sure wouldn't wash a 2' x 2' area (on a dirty vehicle) before rinsing out my wash medium, but then I wouldn't use a BHB without also using a foamgun either.
Assuming the BHB passed the CD test (my Montana ones did), the marring is coming from grinding dirt against the paint, either during the washing or when drying (gentle-enough BHBs, used by themselves, are likely to leave residual dirt, they require subsequent passes with a more aggressive wash medium after the "big stuff" has been BHBed off). Note that residual dirt that's too fine to see can still cause marring.
And note that I washed very carefully for *decades* (including years of single stage black lacquer) before I got my technique sorted out. [Shoot], it took dozens of washes with the foamgun before I got that technique just right. And heh heh, it's not like I'm a slow learner
Here's a basic test: how long is the marring? If most of the marring looks like light scratches that're *a few inches long* there's something fundamentally wrong with the wash technique. Any marring from the wash oughta be very short little scratches.
Eh, I'm not really thrilled with how parts of the above sound, hope I didn't sound all critical or anything
On the LSP issue:
The only time I've had marring that was only in the LSP (not the underlying paint) was with heavily layered KSG. And that marring was so slight as to be invisible under almost all condions.
The primary benefit of (some) LSPs is slickness and dirt-shedding. The dirt doesn't stick so it washes off easily.
Don't underestimate the importance of a great shampoo, one with great lubricity and encapsulation characteristics.
No worries Accumulator this is informative not critical. As far as the wash technique is concerned I washed a 2x2 area then rinsed twice ( hose first then rinse bucket ) before I went back to the wash bucket. Maybe I wasn't clear enough on that :nixweiss. The marring is defiantly coming from the mitt and or brush, as I stated earlier the test I did confirmed this. My paint is just too soft to keep mar free it seems. I don't have this problem with most of the other vehicles I clean, only the ones with very soft CC's. I agree that good shampoo is very important. It seems to me that LSP's provide no protection from the abrasive action from wash media. I agree that they provide some slickness and they do keep a lot of the dirt from sticking to the surface of the paint, but a hair from a mitt or brush seems to pass right through. Dirt on the other hand because it is encapsulated in something from the shampoo, may still pass through the LSP but doesn't scratch for the most part because of the encapsulation. What your take on how LSP's behave on the paint surface during a wash.
Accumulator
Well-known member
DSVWGLI said:
OK...hmm.. maybe you oughta try a MF mitt :nixweiss I use 'em on the S8 (after the BHB passes) and they're soft enough in-and-of themselves but they tend to retain dirt even after rinsing. And if even a Montana BHB mars the paint then I'd expect most *any* dirt will do it anyhow.
I would try using a foamgun, directing its output at the point where the wash media contact the paint. Might help a little.
Glad you didn't take my previous post as being :nono I'm in a bit of a hurry and posting too fast to properly express myself.
In thinking about the OP's question, do you guys think it would help to use an electric pressure washer (1800 psi) to rinse off the surface dirt more than just using a regular nozzle on a garden hose? Get within a foot or two and "blast" the surface at an angle? I'm sure you guys who do this for a living have probably already either heard this question or tried it yourself. Just curious what your thoughts/experience is about the process.
Thanks
Thanks
DSVWGLI said:
Accum, you need to save your method in a Word file so all you have to do is copy and paste it to this site.:lol
This is a condensed version but basically he starts out with the boar's hair brush (BHB) and spray's his foam gun right where the brush contacts the paint in order to provide the best lubrication and flushing of particles away from the paint. He never uses long strokes, just many short strokes so should something get caught, the swirl mark it would leave would be rather small. Quite often (accum would have to specify how often) he well rinse out the BHB in his rinse bucket.
After completing the entire car with this method, the largest junk is gone and he switches to a wool wash mitt to finish up using the same short strokes and using the foam gun right where the mitt connects with the paint.
Alot of work but not a lot of swirls. If this doesn't work, you may have to go with Superbee's no touch wash which requires purchasing some expensive equipment, an gas powered pressure washer (few hundred), Cam Spray Foam Cannon (with shipping I think about a hundred), CRSpotless waterfilter (not sure, few hundred???).
jb1 said:
It may help. But if I were going to get a pressure washer, I would probably spend the extra money to get one compatible with a Foam Cannon. Those tend to be more reliable than the Home Depot/Karcher pressure washers and you would have the option of upgrading down the road to the foam cannon.
Accumulator
Well-known member
DSVWGLI said:
Bert31 said:
Yeah, I oughta type it up and update my Non-marring Wash Technique thread.
Bert31 covered it quite well. The idea is "dislodge and flush" as opposed to "scrub". I never let wash media contact the paint without the foamgun output (more suds than foam) being sprayed at the point of contact.
How often I rinse the BHB depends on how dirty things are. With my boosed water pressure the foamgun will rinse the BHB out pretty well all on its own, at least when the vehicle isn't very dirty..but better to rinse more often than necessary.
I'd be using a pressure washer for a prewash if it weren't for the overcrowded shop; I can't have overspray going everywhere as there are (clean) vehicles parked (too) near the wash bay.
I blow most of the water off with the AirWand and spray QD on each panel before doing the final drying, which I do very gently with very soft WWs; I oughta blot but I seldom do.