brand new paint job, scratched!

You can use your DA to "polish" the paint as long as you use a "non-silicone/non-wax" body-shop safe polish which will not seal the paint. If you use something from the 3M line you are OK as they specialize in "body-shop" safe products.



As you say, 60 to 90 days before putting any type of protection product on the paint (wax or paint sealant)



Regards

Bud Abraham

DETAIL PLUS SYSTEMS
 
Rx8 Fanatic said:
Thanks. So I do have to wait 60-90 days to polish it with my DA?
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The potential issue is that if the paint is still hardening up it might be soft. I've had fresh paint that was so soft it was nearly impossible to polish, but after two months the same paint had hardened up to "normal but a little on the soft side".
 
buda said:
You can use your DA to "polish" the paint as long as you use a "non-silicone/non-wax" body-shop safe polish which will not seal the paint. If you use something from the 3M line you are OK as they specialize in "body-shop" safe products.



As you say, 60 to 90 days before putting any type of protection product on the paint (wax or paint sealant)



Regards

Bud Abraham

DETAIL PLUS SYSTEMS
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Ok. I use Menzerna anyways, so I guess I'll be fine since it's body shop safe. Thanks guys
 
Accumulator said:
The potential issue is that if the paint is still hardening up it might be soft. I've had fresh paint that was so soft it was nearly impossible to polish, but after two months the same paint had hardened up to "normal but a little on the soft side".
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But think about how strange that sounds? What is taking so darn long for the solvents to evaporate? All the modern paint I'm familiar with takes days, not months to fully harden. You ever discuss this with your painter?
 
David Fermani said:
But think about how strange that sounds? What is taking so darn long for the solvents to evaporate? All the modern paint I'm familiar with takes days, not months to fully harden. You ever discuss this with your painter?
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Agreed... paint that takes months to cure sounds like not enough hardener was used when mixing.
 
David Fermani said:
But think about how strange that sounds? What is taking so darn long for the solvents to evaporate? All the modern paint I'm familiar with takes days, not months to fully harden. You ever discuss this with your painter?
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Oh, yeah...we "discussed" a lot of things related to that particular job and they ended up losing my business after many years of previously OK work.



You've probably heard me rail about this one before, but anyhow... it was RM b/c on my old Volvo wagon. [ticked] me off something fierce but it did eventually harden up, right before I gave it to my niece-in-law.



My usual example on this subject is Glasurit, shot/baked at Stoddard (now called "Lake County Collision" since the new owner is leaving his mark on things), and while that stuff does outgas for a pretty long time, at least it's hard enough to work when it's fresh. Still gets a bit harder for two-three months though, just enough that I can tell and can use different products at different points during that outgassing period.
 
Gentlemen paint curing and solvent evaporation are two different things. A paint can be sanded, buffed and polished (with non-silicone polish) within hours after application.



Solvent used as the carrier for the paint takes time to evaporate. Even OEM factory paint requires 21 days before sealing to allow solvent to evaporate.



Bud Abraham
 
buda said:
Even OEM factory paint requires 21 days before sealing to allow solvent to evaporate.
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Bud, not that I think you're lying but what is your source for that information? I can honestly say that is the first I've ever heard that figure; my impression was that factory finishes were ready to be sealed as soon as they cooled down from being baked....
 
The first question to ask yourself is "why would I lie in the first place"



I am a supplier to the industry, as such it is our responsibility to provide those in our industry and especially our customers, with accurate information. Not heresy or opinions, but researched and valid data.



To give you a name most of what I have indicated on this post came from John Hughes of Ford Motor Company who was involved in the paint finishing division.



It was further validated by my contacts with the Dutch automotive paint company Akzo-Sikkens.



What I would suggest you do is contact, on line, one of the major automotive paint companies: DuPont; Akzo-Sikkens; Glausruit; BASF; Herbert Standox or Sherwin-Williams and get to their tech dept and ask how long it takes for solvents to completely evaporate from OEM thermocuring paint finishes and from aftermarket paint finishes.



And/or google this phrase: "Solvent Evaporation in Automotive Paint."



Regards

Bud Abraham

DETAIL PLUS
 
buda said:
The first question to ask yourself is "why would I lie in the first place"
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Allow me to restate what I already said: "not that I think you're lying"



I am a supplier to the industry, as such it is our responsibility to provide those in our industry and especially our customers, with accurate information. Not heresy or opinions, but researched and valid data.



To give you a name most of what I have indicated on this post came from John Hughes of Ford Motor Company who was involved in the paint finishing division.



It was further validated by my contacts with the Dutch automotive paint company Akzo-Sikkens.



What I would suggest you do is contact, on line, one of the major automotive paint companies: DuPont; Akzo-Sikkens; Glausruit; BASF; Herbert Standox or Sherwin-Williams and get to their tech dept and ask how long it takes for solvents to completely evaporate from OEM thermocuring paint finishes and from aftermarket paint finishes.



And/or google this phrase: "Solvent Evaporation in Automotive Paint."



Regards

Bud Abraham

DETAIL PLUS
Click to expand...



That's all I was really looking for, a way to get more technical information on the background basis of your statement. I'm curious to find out what sort of negative effects sealing OEM paint finishes prior to the 21-day window actually has in the long run since it's not completely uncommon for dealerships and detailers to be faced with that situation and the commonly shared thoughts of most are that no harm is done since the paint was baked on at high temperatures.



I'll have to do a bit of research and report back the findings.
 
Shiny Lil Detlr said:
... I'm curious to find out what sort of negative effects sealing OEM paint finishes prior to the 21-day window...
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It's my understanding that OEM paint is baked at much higher temps than any post-production paint, temps that simply aren't feasible once a vehicle has temperature-sensitive stuff (rubber, etc.) on it.



Heh heh, I honestly don't think I can recall a single topic that gets more, uhm....well, :argue than this particular subject! Fermani and I agreed to disagree ages ago and he and I are *still* going at it :chuckle: He directed me to a paint/bodywork forum where it was being discussed and even those guys never came to a solid consensus.
 
Accumulator said:
It's my understanding that OEM paint is baked at much higher temps than any post-production paint, temps that simply aren't feasible once a vehicle has temperature-sensitive stuff (rubber, etc.) on it.



Heh heh, I honestly don't think I can recall a single topic that gets more, uhm....well, :argue than this particular subject! Fermani and I agreed to disagree ages ago and he and I are *still* going at it :chuckle: He directed me to a paint/bodywork forum where it was being discussed and even those guys never came to a solid consensus.
Click to expand...

What John Hughes of Ford Motor Co; Ron Ketcham of Auto International whose company produces a great many chemicals for OEM's and my automotive paint companies tell me is that it is recommended to wait 60 to 90 days for aftermarket paint and 21 days for factory paint to allow for solvent evaporation.



Bud Abraham
 
buda said:
What John Hughes of Ford Motor Co; Ron Ketcham of Auto International whose company produces a great many chemicals for OEM's and my automotive paint companies tell me is that it is recommended to wait 60 to 90 days for aftermarket paint and 21 days for factory paint to allow for solvent evaporation.



Bud Abraham
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I'd never heard about waiting on the OE finishes, but then I never took delivery of a vehicle that wasn't at least that old anyhow. Gee, come to think about it, I never even asked any of my paint guys about waiting with the OE finishes.



Oh, and yeah...Ron and I go back a ways and his word is golden IMO :xyxthumbs
 
Accumulator said:
It's my understanding that OEM paint is baked at much higher temps than any post-production paint, temps that simply aren't feasible once a vehicle has temperature-sensitive stuff (rubber, etc.) on it.
Click to expand...



Right... and that's not a fact I'm disputing. My interpretation of what Bud is saying is that OEM paint may be "cured" as a result of high temp baking, but that it is still out-gassing for 21 days after being applied and therefore should not be sealed.



So where my interest comes in is wondering what effect sealing the paint while it is out-gassing will have in the situation where it is already cured. Obviously on uncured aftermarket paint we know it can cause a number of issues up to and including delamination, but can the same thing happen on OEM thermocured finishes? That's the question.
 
Shiny Lil Detlr said:
Right... and that's not a fact I'm disputing. My interpretation of what Bud is saying is that OEM paint may be "cured" as a result of high temp baking, but that it is still out-gassing for 21 days after being applied and therefore should not be sealed..
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If I ever buy a new vehicle that's *that* fresh off the line, guess I'll use my Meguiar's #5 New Car Glaze on it, just like back in the day :D



Interesting point, that differentiating between "curing" and "outgassing". I always think of the latter as just an indicator of the former, *wrong wrong wrong* perhaps, though I do think it serves as an OK approximation for functional/practical purposes with regard to LSPing.
 
Accumulator said:
If I ever buy a new vehicle that's *that* fresh off the line, guess I'll use my Meguiar's #5 New Car Glaze on it, just like back in the day :D
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That's certainly an option, but so is OCW since we know it is safe to be used on uncured/fresh aftermarket (refinish) paint.
 
Accumulator said:
Oh, and yeah...Ron and I go back a ways and his word is golden IMO :xyxthumbs
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I'll second that for sure.





Sounds to me that OCW ought to make the most sense since it's fresh paint safe. If you were to go to glaze route, how often would you have reapply it or would a single application last long enough until the paint is properly cured?
 
Shiny Lil Detlr said:
That's certainly an option, but so is OCW since we know it is safe to be used on uncured/fresh aftermarket (refinish) paint.
Click to expand...



Yeah, I'm just a sucker for M05, so any excuse to use it....
 
Bill D said:
If you were to go to glaze route, how often would you have reapply it or would a single application last long enough until the paint is properly cured?
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Gotta reapply after every wash.
 
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