Are YOU over polishing your paint?

For those with hard paint, (anything moderate to soft, I can't comment on with certainty) I would say that the PI III MG is safe enough to use as a regular polish. It's nice because there's no fillers. I'm assuming the new Perfect 3000 SMR provides the same great results.
 
I've found what works best on the majority of the vehicles I do is to limit the deep polishing to once a year (or as needed) and maintain the paint with polishes with little or no abrasives, like AIO, VM, RMG, PwC, etc. Like Accumulator pointed out, it is essential to wash properly so as to not induce more marring into the paint. Change out your wash pads/mitts regularly, it is cheap insurance. Also regularly inspect your PC pads when you clean them. When you begin to notice wear on the surface or if you drop it face down it is probably a good idea to replace it. Grit in the pads can leave some nasty scratches.



For deep polishing, I find that DACP or SSR2.5 are about as heavy as you can go with a PC and not end up with moderate to significant marring, although I've had good success with the new Clearkote Compound...however it is pretty aggressive and I definitely wouldn't use it regularly. Optimum Polish also works well via PC and you can vary its aggressiveness with pad choice as you also can with #80.



It is essential that you use the products as directed and in most cases, you need to work them until they clear. If you don't, you will more than likely induce marring which means more deep polishing will be needed. I have found that working the products in at a PC speed of 4-5 and spreading it out by moving the PC at about 4-6 inches per second for 2-3 passes then slowing down to 1" per second and cranking the PC up to 6 for a couple of passes will clear out the polish, provided you used the proper amount. Put enough pressure on the PC to bog the motor than lift slightly until it resumes full speed and use that pressure. After a while it becomes second nature. By using polishes properly, you will get the intended result in one, maybe two good polishing sessions (paint condition dependent, of course) instead of several deep polishing sessions. Less deep polishing = more paint depth for future correction.



DavidB is absolutely right, if the polish is meant for rotary use, believe it. The abrasives are designed to work in conjunction with the heat a rotary generates to break down properly. If you have to work in the sun, make sure you use a product that is designed for use in the sun. Products meant for cool surfaces will not spread well on hot paint and tend to chalk up and you will end up with surface marring that will require additional polishing steps to remove.



My own car has had more than a few deep polishing sessions due to the absolutely horrendous condition the paint was in initially, plus a neighbor's cat who has jumped on my hood a few times. Severe marring, spider swirls, paint transfers, etc (pics in my gallery here on Autopia) and no rotary meant it did take a lot of deep polishing over the course of a year to really get the paint to pass very close direct sun inspection. Now, about the strongest I need to go is #80 to polish out any light defects my paint picks up.
 
Charlie Matco said:
i was informed today 3m 3000 contains silicone. is silicone a filler?



Good question, Charlie.



In the case of 3M's new Perfect-It 3000 SMR polish, silicone oils are used as a lubricant, filler and glossing agent. I have spent a lot of time with this polish and have yet to form a complete understanding.



I do find it funny that 3M is now adding silicone to their "body shop safe" polish formulas after marketing hard for more than 20 years that silicone is bad. My oh my how things change when forced to reformulate.
 
Charlie Matco said:
i was informed today 3m 3000 contains silicone. is silicone a filler?



Not necessarily. It's an ingredient that allows the product to be "more workable". The fear of silicone based products really only applies to a body shop environment where painting takes place. Silicone can spoil the painting process by producing fish eyes, things of that nature. But for the detailer, not a concern.



I wonder if silicone was one of the ingredients substituted in to make the new 3000 line up VOC compliant :nixweiss
 
Bill D said:
I wonder if silicone was one of the ingredients substituted in to make the new 3000 line up VOC compliant :nixweiss



YES!



My guess is that 3M had to make a decision between a more costly, slow evaporation solvent and the use of silicone oils.



silicone oil = cheap

high quality solvent = priceless!
 
The most I go for is swirl removal. I don't really go after light scratches that remain after all the swirls are gone. Those scratches can be filled in nicely by IHG, then topped with paste wax. :waxing:



This'll be my routine until I save enough to buy a Checkline DCFN-3000FX ($1,265.00 w/ .01 mil resolution!). :woot2: When I get that, I can polish with no fear. :buffing:



Meanwhile, I'm having a tough time deciding what to do with my AIO and SG...



Learning to live with "imperfection" can be tough but we're doing just that with ourselves, right? :2thumbs:
 
merci said:


This'll be my routine until I save enough to buy a Checkline DCFN-3000FX ($1,265.00 w/ .01 mil resolution!). :woot2: When I get that, I can polish with no fear. :buffing:






What is that:confused:
 
DavidB said:
Sorry... I had an senior moment... Perfect-It II is what I was referring to.



db





What is your opinion on the 3M Perfect It II SMR? I read your review on it in the review section. Do you still like it? It seems to get a bad rap around here. I think it's a very good product.
 
stevet said:
What is that:confused:



It's a paint thickness gauge. I can measure the amount of clearcoat left - which is great because I'm getting a new car. I can take baseline readings and make sure I don't remove more than .2 mils for the entire life of the car. :2thumbs:
 
Let us not forget the over-usage of cutting pads. I have read here many times people starting off with such an abrasive tool. I personal rarely use cutting pads because of their function denotes their activity - cutting away paint.

Not good when it is not necessary to be that aggressive.



IMO many, over use this tool.
 
stevet said:
What is your opinion on the 3M Perfect It II SMR? I read your review on it in the review section. Do you still like it? It seems to get a bad rap around here. I think it's a very good product.



I have always liked this polish, but it was designed to be used by rotary. That may be why ppl don't like it much.
 
DavidB said:
I have always liked this polish, but it was designed to be used by rotary. That may be why ppl don't like it much.



Hmm. It says on my bottle that it's excellent for hand use. In fact they high light the excellent for hand use in different color.
 
These are my comments to "....how do I go to the highest level of perfection and stay there?", Rule #1 and #2.



I think as much as we know it and is talked about...people tend to just acknowledge it and push it aside into the "yeah, I know that" bin. There are so many types of people here, with different types of cars. From what I catch, there are more daily drivers here than there are those with the high end GQs we (daily drivers) dream of. Those of us who keep their cars as best as possible, have a few scars here and there which we only we know of.



Sometimes I think the people with the daily drivers are unrealistic. Let's face it, we will encounter parking lot events, bugs, birds, humans, nature, etc. Heck, they're daily drivers. We have to focus on keeping those cars and accept their fate.



What I'm trying to say to my fellow daily drivers out there is, yes, this is Autopia, and yes, we strive to keep the car above the standard of the others out there on the road, but let's realize that there will be times where the paint isn't going to be perfect. They aren't show cars. So let's not break out the cutting pad and high cut compounds right away. Perhaps use a light SMR or perhaps a filling LSP. I bought my car with the intention to keep it for at least 10 years. This is the type of DD I am within the subset of DDs.



Like I see from time to time in the Professional Detailing forum...."don't say to the customer you can fix the issue. Just explain you can make it look better." We should keep that advise for ourselves as well.

I'm at a point where I may need something more than #9. But the reality is, if #9 is doesn't entirely fix my issues, than I will probably just move on to a cleaner, LSP and just live with some scars. Enough to make it pass a 5 or 10 foot test. I know this is not a very Autopian thing to say, but I'll stick my neck out for others who feel the same way I do.



Now for you guyz with 3 or 4 GQs....well....you're at a different level.:bow



My comment on Rule #3:



Sometimes this can be pretty challenging. Especially for the "noob". How many posts are there every spring that ask the "What is the best product ?", "Is this process correct ?" type questions ? I think the Learn articles are a great start for the common "noob" as well as the born again noobs (I'm having this feeling lately). And then after all of this, you may ask a question and get 5 different answers which totally confuse you even more. All in all, it's good though, it triggers the noodle and gets you deeper into the "how" and more importantly, the "why".

Dang it, I came here with one small question about Zaino...and look what you guyz did to me (Side comment: I really like the way Autopian's treat "noobs"....we were all there once.)



How often do the experienced detailers (whether it's 5, 10, 30 years), go back to the basics ? Ever re-read the Learn articles and old threads ?



It's funny how a lot of people have a lot of patience and will spend an entire weekend detailing a car, but will not spend some time chasing down the basic answers to the question, "what is this product ?"



I think why some of the senior members here advise to look at the directions on the product...it's a good place to start, is because it's another overlooked point. Fundementals will get you further than you think sometimes (detailing and in anything else).



Am I making any sense ?...it's Monday, please have patience...Perhaps it's the coffee talking... Maybe I'm pulling the post trigger a little too soon.



David, if this is a can of worms....it's a juicy can :D
 
DavidB



This is a subject that I am very passionate about since I worked in formulating and manufacturing automotive paint for several years. Paint companies and car manufacturers go through exhaustive research to make automotive paint that looks great and lasts for many years. Since paint does not regenerate itself, to remove it will reduce its life and can eventually cause it to fail prematurely.



I just have a couple of obervations to add to all your great points:



1. It is best to protect the paint from getting scratched or swirled in the first place. Some of the common causes of swirl marks are terry towels, tunnel car washes, waxes/polishes containing abrasives (If the product being used leaves a powdery residue behind, then it contains abrasives. Finer abrasives, remove less paint and leave finer marks on the paint).



2. If the paint can be repaired by chemcial means (e.g. bird dropping, concrete spotting, water spotting, etc.) chemical cleaning is the answer not abrasive cleaning. Proper chemcial cleaners will dissolve the contaminants rather than abrade the paint.



3. The only time that abrasive products should be used are in removing scratches or swirl marks. In these cases, products to be used must not dry since dry buffing can cause deep scratches. Also the buffer should be used at speeds of less than 1500 RPM (especially with rotary) since higher speeds heat up the paint and cause it to soften which combined with the high shear rate can cause the paint to fracture.



Finally as you have already pointed out, one should always use the least aggressive means to correct the damaged paint.



David G.
 
Excellent thread. I just recently used MenZerna IP which is pretty agressive. Now that I have used that product with patience and have gotten my paint where I want it to be, I hope that I will never have to use that product again. BY being very careful when washing and QDing I hope that maybe a yearly paint cleaning will be all I need, followed by an LSP of choice. ( Thats for the garage Queen.)



For my daily driver: the same applies but maybe a biannual cleaning and some minor spot repair with a mild product.
 
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