Are we obsessed with water beading?

I

imported_doug

New member
This post was inspired by DETAILKING's photos, but it isn't an attack on DK or anyone else. In my never-ending quest to question <strong class='bbc'>everything[/b] I started wondering about the significance of beading- so what? What does beading really mean? My car beads like crazy with every wax I've ever used. I can't see any difference between them. Seems to me what causes water to NOT bead is a dirty or oxidized surface - which kind of "wicks" the water down and breaks its surface tension. I don't know this for a fact, though. If someone out there clays and then DAWNs their car so that you have a good clean but unwaxed car, please see if there is a difference in beading before and after you wax and let us know.

What do you guys think?
 
I just like to watch the water move around when it beads while driving. You know when you come to a stop light and about 10 gallons of water shoots forward and down your windshield.



It is neat looking.



I like water beading over long periods of time between coats of paint protectant.
 
There are several schools of thought on the water beading thing. Some like to see their car with the water not beading and then when they wax it the beaded water tells them that they have made a difference. I think it could purely psychological that we have to see the water beading before we think we have done a good job. Other people can tell they did a good job regardless of the water beading (or lack of it).



I am with Guess My Name on this one. I love to see the water pour down my windshield when I brake at a stop sign or something. Not to mention that when the water beads up it is a breeze to dry your car if you have the water blade. Less water on the surface equals less time to dry. And it is going to slide off anyway the first time you come to a stop sign. :)
 
Hey carguy,



My car was stripped bare for sure. It had been bare paint for years, I don't know if the previous owner waxed it or anything. It was actually dawn washed for a few months :eek:.



The paint sheeted water and had really big loose beads wherever water did not sheet off all of the way. It did the same thing after I clayed it. After SMR and dawn wash it beaded some from leftovr SMR fillers, but that was fixed by ppcl. It beads after klasse SG.



HTH,

pUterbum
 
K and Z are both hyrophobic. I don't know the polymer for Zaino but for Klasse it's acrylic. I suspect Zaino is a little more "oily" than Klasse; evidence due to the type of beading that exists.



Try this one at home kids: Take some vaseline and apply it to the back of your hand, a nice uniform coat. Then run your hand under the faucet. What do you see? What you see if beading. Big whoop right? Well take a good look at how it beads, The water actually sticks to your hand. You can put you hand upside down and move it around and the bead cling to it. It's really interesting. No go fling the beaded water at someone ;)



This is sorta how Zaino is, it's beading with cling action.



Now take Klasse (5 coats to be exact) from my car. Run water over it. It's hydrophobic to and there is beading. Now the water that has no place to go, like on the flat part of the roof, trunk and hood they bead, and the rest of the car it sheets off.



If you could put Klasse on the back of your hand, it would probably be water resistant and hydrphobic and bead, but a little tilt of you hand it would just roll right off. It's the same but not clingy. That's the difference.



Now how do we know if our protection is wrong. Well run water on your other non protected hand, what happens. The water wets into your hand. Your hand just gets wet.



So with Klasse if the sheet/beading runs out then it goes.

With Zaino, if there is no clingy beading then it goes.



Theory is simple base upon how water reacts to different hydrophobic coatings. Some are more trationally oil based more than others, some have that clingy bead thing, while others resist and protect, but allow the water to leave rather than cling.



If you Klassed and Zainoed a lab watch glass. (a concave, contact lense looking dish) and put a drop of water on it, the bead would still be round and you would not be able to tell the difference between the two. If the watchglass was unprotected the water would just "wet out" into the glass and not bead.



If you Klassed and Zainoed two panels and put them on a steep angle and put two drops of water on the panels they would probably both roll off. The z panel drop would roll slower than the K panel water drop. It's the clingyness of the water to the wax that you would be testing. If the panel was untreated the water drop would not stay a drop, it would just "wet out".



HTH-Steve
 
<blockquote class='ipsBlockquote' >

<em class='bbc'>Originally posted by carguy [/i]
<strong class='bbc'>Are we obsessed with water beading?[/b]</blockquote>
I don't know about the rest of us, but some knuckleheads at Ford Motor Company are seriously obsessed with water beading - and in some very weird ways now.

As we've moved from the 2001 model year to the 2002 model year, the geniuses at Ford (and for those who are unsure about - yes, I am being sarcastic) changed the owners manuals sections on waxing your new car. Changed it big time.

The following is taken verbatim from the owners manuals in question:

<strong class='bbc'>The 2001 Owners Manuals (and the 2002 Ford Explorer and Mercury Mountaineer manuals, which are really written as 2001's apparently):[/b]

<strong class='bbc'>Waxing your vehicle[/b]
Waxing your vehicle on a regular basis will reduce minor scratches and paint damage. <em class='bbc'>(No problem here - I agree)[/i]

Wax when water stops beading on the surface. This could be every three or four months, depending on operating conditions. <em class='bbc'>(Same here - I agree)[/i]


Use only carnauba or synthetic-based waxes. Use a cleaning fluid with a clean cloth to remove any bugs before waxing your vehicle. Use tar remover to remove any tar spots. <em class='bbc'>(Same here again - I completely agree)[/i]
<strong class='bbc'>________________________[/b]

<strong class='bbc'>The 2002 Owners Manuals (except Explorer/Mountaineer as noted above):[/b]

<strong class='bbc'>PROTECTING THE PAINT FINISH OF YOUR VEHICLE[/b]

Applying a polymer paint sealant to your vehicle on a regular basis will assist in reducing minor scratches and paint damage. <em class='bbc'>(Ok, I like polymer sealants, but I like carnauba based waxes too - what's wrong this year with carnauba??)[/i]


A typical paint sealant lasts approximately six months to a year, depending on local weather conditions and the cleaning soap that is used in washing the vehicle. <em class='bbc'>(No problem here - I agree)[/i]


Do not use a wax that beads excessively. <em class='bbc'>(EXCUSE ME???? Do Not Use A Wax That Beads Excessively????? Exactly what kind of wax is that, and exactly <strong class='bbc'>what is excessive water beading[/b]???? Have you heard of a quality wax or sealant that doesn't bead water????? Are we on drugs here??????)[/i]
___________________________

They don't say anything about <strong class='bbc'><em class='bbc'>sheeting water[/i][/b], although one might infer that. They just say to use a polymer sealant and don't use a wax that beads excessively. What ever the hell that is.....................

And I though Meguiar's was out to drive me crazy.............
 
The new paints may not like carnauba waxes like the old ones. Automotive paints are changing in a big way the next couple of years.
 
<blockquote class='ipsBlockquote' >

<em class='bbc'>Originally posted by Andre' [/i]
<strong class='bbc'>The new paints may not like carnauba waxes like the old ones. Automotive paints are changing in a big way the next couple of years. [/b]</blockquote>
In the next couple of years, Andre', that may be true. But in the present, I've called on Ford as an industrial sales rep for the last 17 years, and from at least the last two years to the present, nothing has changed in how Ford paints their vehicles. Plus, the 2002 Explorer and Mountaineer came out in February, 2001, so Ford wrote those owner's manuals to the same 2001 model year standard .

The 2001 Ford Escape (as an example) says to use a carnuba wax. The 2002 Ford Escape says to use a polymer sealant, and **snicker** not to use a wax that beads excessively. The change over from the 2001 model year to the 2002 model year on that assembly line was done between shift changes. Two thirds of the paint colors stayed the same. So why the owners manual change?

Personally, I think Ford's just being weird.

Incidentally, I did my wife's 2002 Ford Escape with Meguiar's No. 20 Polymer Sealant, and it beads like crazy.
 
Sounds like you have some info I haven't heard (no big surprise there ;)). Care to share any?



Since Ketch is gone now, we need to find insight elsewhere :( :(
 
Except KLASSE is hydroscopic....



Yes, it is water soluble which is why you can use it as a QD'er and car wash per the instructions..........
 
<blockquote class='ipsBlockquote' >

<em class='bbc'>Originally posted by carguy [/i]
<strong class='bbc'>If someone out there clays and then DAWNs their car so that you have a good clean but unwaxed car, please see if there is a difference in beading before and after you wax and let us know.

What do you guys think? [/b]</blockquote>
Carguy, I've dawned my car before and after doing so, there was absolutely no beading whatsoever. In fact, the cohesive properties of water actually made the water completely cover a panel for a few seconds before slowly sheeting off. After drying, my paint had lost all slickness.
 
Ron mentioned that in the next few years there will be more marr resistant clear coats. That mean less swirls :) :up All of the polishes that are used today will, for the most part, become useless. New polishes are being devloped to work with the new "harder" clearcoats that are coming out.
 
<blockquote class='ipsBlockquote' >

<em class='bbc'>Originally posted by ShowroomLincoln [/i]
<strong class='bbc'>Ron mentioned that in the next few years there will be more marr resistant clear coats. That mean less swirls :) :up All of the polishes that are used today will, for the most part, become useless. New polishes are being devloped to work with the new "harder" clearcoats that are coming out. [/b]</blockquote>
True enough, <strong class='bbc'> ShowroomLincoln[/b], but you think that beading water is going to hurt those new finishes?
 
I was just responding to puterbum's request for any info about paint technology changing in the future, not trying to change the topic of the thread.
 
i also remeber him adding that this will make a realPITA for us to use products like SMR..FI-II etc.(wet sanding)..because unless you have a PC,,,,applying these prodcuts by hand will be nearly impossible(at least to the point where we like the results)....good point though.....



len...cool info buddy...but do they say why...you shouldnt use a wax that produces beading...or is it just stated in the book and they never give an explanation??:confused: ....



steve...i think you summed up how i have felt about Z/K...from the reading anyway...i mean i can only go by what klasse users write...and pretty much what you said is...well...what they write....so my next question is....ok...Z is clingy and some...not all of the "flat surface" resting water will just stay there beading.....while the same flat surfaced area with K will allow...or make it easier for that water to sheed off......instead of just staying there....i think thats what your saying....so besides having to wipe it off...or drive and it comes off...is there any pro/con to either....i mean ive heard all about water soptting etc....but ive never had one...even when i was sick and water was on my car for a wk....of course it was on top of Z so...anyway...just thinking is it just a personal preference...beading/sheeding...or does the sheeding prevent some sort of water damage say...water spots i guess by allowing the sheeding to let the it run off....



if what DK says about K being water friendly is true...it would make sense for it to sheed off..right??



finally i agree with guess...jng and Guess.and carguy...i think its 90% psychological...i just like to see it as it makes me think...hey...all this work im putting in is actually doing sumthin.....SICK!!:p ;)
 
First of all DK, the word you're looking for is hydrophilic :)



Second, I already thought we esablished that although Klasse is soluble in water, it polymerizes and turns in the something that is highly NOT soluble in water. Otherwise Klasse would never last longer than Zaino :)



Third just because a car sheets doesn't mean it doesn't bead. Klasse repels water otherwise it would sheet. Sheeting is repelling just as beading is. And repelling water = hydrophobic. When you putt a drop of water on a Klassed car it rolls off, right? Rolls, what rolls, the bead rolls, bead! ;)



So if sheeting = repelling, and beading = repelling then that establishes some sort of relation ship between the two. Hence the theory that they are VERY similar, their only difference is the way that the water is repelled. That's where the water clingyness theory comes into play. It's characterizes the way a bead of waters sticks or rolls on the car.



Here's a control (for non-science people, "an experiment in which the subjects are treated as in a parallel experiment except for omission of the procedure or agent under test and which is used as a standard of comparison in judging experimental effects"). I used my old AIO applicator to apply Klasse on the glass in April. (APRIL!) and what does my window do now, bead! No QD on the window no nothing. Any you are going to tell me that it my windows are hydrophilic? Nope, people even complain that Klasse on windows cause too much beading that they don't like it.



So yes make your own conclusions, just don't make the one that Klasse isn't hydrophobic.
 
Thanks for the info Showroom, can't wait to see the results of those clears!

Steve, wow! Nice post. I looked up any terms people may not be familar with (like me!) and here are the results in nice dictionary format:

(DETAILKING's word)
<strong class='bbc'>Hydroscopic--[/b]
<em class='bbc'>Absorbing or retaining moisture from the atmosphere.[/i]

<strong class='bbc'>Hydrophobic--[/b]
Literally, afraid of water. Water repelling. Refer to YoSteve's insightful post above.

<strong class='bbc'>Hydrophilic--[/b]
Literally, water-loving. Attracts water right out of an atmosphere! I'd have a problem with any sealant that was this....

BTW, control = the only subject of a test you didn't modify in any way.

:) Now go ahead and participate now that vocabulary can't stop you

HTH-
puterbum
 
I noticed that the "sheeting" of water on a surface treated with Blackfire is essentially the same process as "beading". The difference being that the "beads" tend to coalesce into much larger beads which then roll (sheet) off the surface leaving it dry. Now I don't claim to know the science that governs the size of a water bead on a particular surface or coating, but I'm sure that it exists. Maybe the makers of Blackfire, who I think claimed to design Blackfire specifically to "sheet" rather than bead, can give us a clue. There is obviously some propert(ies) that afect the surface tension of the water bead.....



Regardless, so long as the end result of the process protects the surface, "beading" or "sheeting are both apparently similar and acceptable.



I was a chemistry major in college....a ways back. I know there are members here with advanced background in some of the processes regarding these properties. What we need is possibly to query the makers of either Blackfire and/or Zaino how this works and what their position is on beading vs sheeting. We should be savvy enough to digest the technical stuff that they can give us (without giving up thier trade secrets of course!) If nothing more, it will be an interesting exercise.....



H
 
as far as K becoming non water soluble thru polymerization processes ill take your word for it because i wasnt here for those threads...of course i will go look at them now...but all im trying to get at...from u or DK is....so what.....what are the pros/cons of a little more water sitting on my car(beading with Z) as opposed to some more of it sheeting off with K....what "damage' are we talking about here..is it neglegible?? or is it ging to cause probs in the long run....thats really what im trying to figure out when i referred to water spotting etc..otherwise good post...alot of the newer wound care supplies i use are now hydrophilic...so the dressings will actually promote healing thru capillary action....ok.im gonna go read the archives about that K stuff...thx..........BTW,hi puter...:p
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top